Ideas for Avant Garde Trio Clone

[MartinV56]

Hi Ryan

Your goals are similar to mine, not avant garde trio, edgar salad bowl

My horn system

I use selenium d405 and d220ti

Basshorn, BLR horn with eminence Beta 10"

luck in your project and lots of patience

more horns, ideas
HORNS - HiFi Chile - Página 74

 

[atilsley]

The '4th way' has been added via a 30Hz Tapped Horn sub.

Link on DIY Audio here.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/213849-pics-new-4-way-horn-rig-underway-9.html#post3107970

Andrew

 

[ryzaa]

Hi guys,

I have a shortlist of drivers that I wish to start modelling for this project. And am confident with the mold and subsequent horn making procedure.

I think I have decided that I will make Kugelwellen horns, after much analysis of various types of horns, I think these will give me the best result. I did consider Le Cleac'h horns, however I think they may be a little harder to fabricate, but I can always try it out in the future.

What I am struggling to find though, is a guide, or how to model such front loaded horns using hornresp, does anyone know of any threads or papers relating to modelling such things?

As always any help is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Ryan.

 

[ryzaa]

Evening.

I have purchased the driver to use for midbass duties, it is the B&C 12PE32. I am just playing around with it on Hornresp. I can't find Cms and Rms on it. Playing around with various values for these just seem to affect sensitivity and impulse response.

What I would also like to know is, how should I go about working out what size front and rear chambers I should use, and what compression ratio a 12 inch woofer should have? Sd is 522sqcm, I have been using a 270sqcm throat area, which gives me a tad under 1.93.

I am also more than likely going to be using the Radian 950PB and B&C DE250 as my midrange and high frequency compression drivers, I haven't begun modelling these yet.

Thanks,

Ryan

 

[Remlab]

Trying to replicate an Avantgarde is like trying to replicate an MBL. Even if you do come close to replicating it's looks, you will never come close to replicating its sound. Way to many variables that you need to have TOTAL control over. For example, the injection molding process for the horns require several tons of pressure..

 

[WithTarragon]

Trying to replicate an Avantgarde is like trying to replicate an MBL. Even if you do come close to replicating it's looks, you will never come close to replicating its sound. Way to many variables that you need to have TOTAL control over. For example, the injection molding process for the horns require several tons of pressure..

I think you are being a wet blanket. This is a DIY forum after all.

While there may be many variables, not all of them equally important. Not all problems need to have an identical solution.

I am interested how this project progresses

 

[Remlab]

I think you are being a wet blanket. This is a DIY forum after all.

While there may be many variables, not all of them equally important. Not all problems need to have an identical solution.

I am interested how this project progresses

I apologize for being a "wet blanket". I have a huge amount of respect for these designs and the designers. German engineering at its finest. If you think you can pull it off, then go for it!

 

[Corvus corax]

Having heard them a number of times, and having played with horns for a little while now, I can say with some confidence that they can be bested without too much effort. I love the look of the Avantgarde systems, but I have some doubt as to whether ABS plastic is the very best material from which to make horns. I was amazed how quickly I was able to get really enjoyable sound from the Stereolab composite horns I purchased after loading up a pair of TAD 4002s, and cobbling together a quick and dirty crossover.

I recently added a pair of B&C 12PE32 drivers in a 70hz front loaded horn, making a 2 way "satellite" system that will work alongside my huge 15 inch MLTL bass enclosures. The 15 inch woofer (Faital) just couldn't reach all the way up to the TAD cleanly, and the attenuation on the TAD CD was pretty heavy to match levels, so I decided to build a modified version of the Inlow Sound midbass horn for the B&C, and get a whole lot closer to running the TAD full out.
I'm building a 80hz vacuum tube crossover for a second amplifier for the TLs, and will have that up and running soon. Some day I'm going to build a pair of round midbass horns, so the whole thing matches in appearance, but right now, the sound is quite good- I've not heard anywhere near the kind of midbass slam I get from this system from anything in the home loudspeaker offerings I have auditioned in the past.

I highly recommend using a large format compression driver to cover the mids and highs, and if you feel the need, add a super tweeter later. I am currently running a TAD 4002 with a Radian 16 ohm diaphragm in a 250hz Tractrix horn, and I have heard the Radian 955 is close to the same performance wise, although I haven't heard it yet. The big horns get pretty directional in the high frequencies, so its a one man show in the stereo room, but in the sweet spot, its a great sounding system.

The B&C 12 is an awesome horn woofer, and they are inexpensive. Be warned, though- they take about 400 hours of thrashing to break in, and up to that point, they are pretty weak sounding. In a large midbass horn (my mouth measures 24 inches square), they are almost capable of running on their own into the bass, but those last 2 octaves are pretty well MIA. Good thing I have a huge pair of TLs to back them up…

 

[MCMXC A.D.]

Trying to replicate an Avantgarde is like trying to replicate an MBL. Even if you do come close to replicating it's looks, you will never come close to replicating its sound. Way to many variables that you need to have TOTAL control over. For example, the injection molding process for the horns require several tons of pressure..

You lack little faith Remlab.

I have managed to sucessfully replicate a Trio clone and the sound is wonderfull. It all comes down to research, sourcing the right parts and a bit of perseverence.

This is one of them which i see has been posted already.



Cheers,

 

[Remlab]

You lack little faith Remlab.

I have managed to sucessfully replicate a Trio clone and the sound is wonderfull. It all comes down to research, sourcing the right parts and a bit of perseverence.

This is one of them which i see has been posted already.



Cheers,

Beautiful paint job! But that does not make it a clone. For example, the midrange horn profile(essential) looks nothing like the trio mid horn profile.
Cloning a conventional speaker design is one thing, but the Avantgarde Trio is anything but conventional. Your beautiful looking(And sounding?) speaker may have been inspired by the the trio, but it is by no means a clone..
http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.com/trio-product-en.html

 

[Remlab]

Read "Book of horns" pdf..
TRIO DOWNLOADS - Avantgarde Acoustic? Hornloudspeaker GMBH

 

[Remlab]

Maybe the word "clone" means different things to different people. To me it means an identical twin. You can only tell the difference on very close examination. Like identical twin's fingerprints being different. If the Trio designer walked into a room with this speaker, how long would it take him to see the difference..

 

[MCMXC A.D.]

Beautiful paint job! But that does not make it a clone. For example, the midrange horn profile(essential) looks nothing like the trio mid horn profile.
Cloning a conventional speaker design is one thing, but the Avantgarde Trio is anything but conventional. Your beautiful looking(And sounding?) speaker may have been inspired by the the trio, but it is by no means a clone..
TRIO - Avantgarde Acoustic? Hornloudspeaker GMBH

Thanks!

You are right, clone is loosley used nowadays for DIY stuff but i agree, a clone should be identical.

Mine aren't but were certainly inspired by a Trio.

Cheers.

 

[ryzaa]

Yes, some time ago I attempted to change the thread title to reflect the change in direction, due to people misinterpreting what I meant with the use of the word clone. If you go to the first post, the title of that post is Ideas For Avant Garde Trio Inspired Speaker. However I wasn't able to change the thread name.

I have designed up the midrange and high frequency horns, interestingly, only the midrange horn will be the same as the trio, for the highs I have opted for a different approach, due to Avant Garde having posted incorrect specs for the high frequency horn. They list the exit diameter, horn length, and the horn tangent angle as being 90 degrees, however modelling a 1" driver in that horn cannot expand to the 90 degree tangent angle at the edge of the mouth over that distance. Interestingly a 1.4" exit driver will work perfectly.

I opted to use a 1" exit driver, and modify the horn slightly, instead of using a 1.4" driver.

Any ideas for chamber sizes and compression ratios for my midbass horn?

Thanks,

Ryan

 

[MCMXC A.D.]

Read "Book of horns" pdf..
TRIO DOWNLOADS - Avantgarde Acoustic? Hornloudspeaker GMBH

I had previously read this one, you are on the right path in posting this if you research the notes behind the reasons for how things were done.

My mid horn is from Lanche Audio, if you look at their Cubis Horn speaker, that is my tweeter and matching horn. The profile is very different as it is a longer horn.

I had the midbass horn made by Azurahorn here in Aus and i then did all the rest in putting them together inc painting. Martin at Azurahorn did the profiling.

I'm not an expert on horns so i basically did a bit of research and bought the parts i wanted from those who alrerady knew how.

Basically, my project relied on outside expertise already established.

 

[Remlab]

I remember John Atkinson(Stereophile magazine) stating that large spherical multi way horns would be perfect candidates for digital delay correction. Do you guys use that method for time aligning the drivers? Or did you go the purist approach? I could understand why one wouldn't use it, being that a speaker of 110db sensitivity puts everything in the chain before it under an aural microscope..

 

[Remlab]

I love this picture(Notice the little plastic t-amp)
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sonicimpact/hero4.jpg

 

[MCMXC A.D.]

I remember John Atkinson(Stereophile magazine) stating that large spherical multi way horns would be perfect candidates for digital delay correction. Do you guys use that method for time aligning the drivers? Or did you go the purist approach? I could understand why one wouldn't use it, being that a speaker of 110db sensitivity puts everything in the chain before it under an aural microscope..

I made the stand in a way that the midhorn and tweeter can be moved back and forth for the mechanical time alignment. My crossover also has the ability to do an electrical time alignment.

 

[Remlab]

With mechanical alignment, it seems that you would have a physical obstruction of the tweeter's output by the rear of the midhorn rim. Or is that not an issue?

 

[ryzaa]

The horns are all designed now, I am drawing the molds up on AutoCAD now ready to send off to a place with a 5 axis CNC router.

Does anyone know of an effective way to draw these in AutoCAD using output data?

I am making it so that the mid and high frequency horns can both fit down to a 1 inch exit driver, and the low frequency horn down to a 2 inch exit driver. This is so if I decide to try different driver/horn combos later down the track, I can just make more and cut down to size, and then mate whatever driver I want to the different horns.

Thanks,
Ryan