Yes.
That was when i didn't know how to do it and there are many more things that i need to learn,I have take the precausion to know that was not safe and have ask people who's knows.
I dont claim to be a "MASTER" builder or anything but I know when to ask question and when to talk. The RH and all my build now have safty ground thanks to some of you member Here.
When I was reading this thread, I try very hard not to chime I'n but when I see the response from you and the Jedi Master supper paint neon crying and lying to make a buck
It's make me sick.
If you don't know, Ask!
It's more helpful.
That was when i didn't know how to do it and there are many more things that i need to learn,I have take the precausion to know that was not safe and have ask people who's knows.
I dont claim to be a "MASTER" builder or anything but I know when to ask question and when to talk. The RH and all my build now have safty ground thanks to some of you member Here.
When I was reading this thread, I try very hard not to chime I'n but when I see the response from you and the Jedi Master supper paint neon crying and lying to make a buck
It's make me sick.
If you don't know, Ask!
It's more helpful.
I too wish he would just use a 3 prong.
I don't deny the issue with the 2 prong cord, to me it's such an easy thing to do.
I'm defending that fact that you say he can't build amazing sounding amps because of his selection in cords. Two different topics here, that's all.
The grommet would be one of the requirements to be given Class II certification as we discussed the other day. That is all you have now in your modern equipment, a grommet protecting your chassis from going live. Double bobbin or not. So go ask your buddy to explain that.
Also consider the fact that despite having a UL cert, the lamps in your house have 2 pronged wire in direct contact with the metal frame, regardless of the grommet at the entry point, and yet I find it curious as to how this is considered safer? You would buy this from Home Depot and not even give it a thought, yet you will bash a fellow audio enthusiast for it.
Care to have your buddy explain that one? Why aren't these lamps a "Time Bomb"?
In my opinion everything should be grounded, I have always stated that.
I don't deny the issue with the 2 prong cord, to me it's such an easy thing to do.
I'm defending that fact that you say he can't build amazing sounding amps because of his selection in cords. Two different topics here, that's all.
The grommet would be one of the requirements to be given Class II certification as we discussed the other day. That is all you have now in your modern equipment, a grommet protecting your chassis from going live. Double bobbin or not. So go ask your buddy to explain that.
Also consider the fact that despite having a UL cert, the lamps in your house have 2 pronged wire in direct contact with the metal frame, regardless of the grommet at the entry point, and yet I find it curious as to how this is considered safer? You would buy this from Home Depot and not even give it a thought, yet you will bash a fellow audio enthusiast for it.
Care to have your buddy explain that one? Why aren't these lamps a "Time Bomb"?
In my opinion everything should be grounded, I have always stated that.
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Globug, old equipment did look like that inside, old cars were dangerous and riding motorcycles without a helmet is dangerous. You actually reinforce the point well, because product liability laws find much of their heritage from the auto industry. It was when manufacturers knew that there products were dangerous, but did nothing to improve them, that their actions became negligent and they became liable. Similarly, manufacturing safety standards have improved from the old valve gear that you might salvage. In fact, when newbies come to the forum with their salvaged gear, the general advice is to replace dried out capacitors, check resistors for drift, and replace the two conductor cord with a grounded chassis three conductor cord. New manufacture gear is made to the standards mentioned above. You obviously have not read the advice given by Tubelab and similar if you think that adding a grommet to the power cord will make their amps safe.
You are probably right that you could pick apart the safety standards of most stuff people post here. If you find a problem, POST IT. You will be helping! Now, to make a slight differentiation, most of the amps here are for personal use. If someone takes a risk, and they legitimately know the danger involved, but the item is for their own personal use, then it is their problem. If you are building stuff to sell, you are obliged to make it safe. Now, these guys either know the risk they are taking on someone else's behalf or they don't. If they don't, they should take the advice on board and fix the problem. If they ignore the issue, they are liable for their negligence. I am not sure of the criminal code in Canada and California, but as well as their behaviour being a tort (tort law is very similar across common law countries such as Britain, US, Australia, New Zealand etc), they may well be committing an offence.
Your statement 'don't like don't buy' I assume is that if I don't like the safety standards used by the manufacturer, then I should not buy. That is a nonsense argument. The people that they are targeting to purchase these amps are probably not EEs with a sound knowledge of the electrical safety code. In fact, the purchasers are relying on the specialised knowledge that these two state they have. I would argue that because of this reliance, there is an argument that the common law implied warrantees of 'fit for purpose' and being 'merchantable quality' are also being breached.
Good arguments by respected members have illustrated why the 2 conductor cord and no earthed chassis is dangerous. You (like the builders in question) shrug that off. Why are you being defensive of something that is inexcusable?
Edit:
While typing I see that you clarified your view on grounded chassis. Grommet on power cord does not make an item 'double insulated', it just makes that element of the product double insulated. Now I live in Australia, so the code here is different, and we have 230 volt power, but the desk lamp in front of me has two conductors, but on the base it is listed as double insulated.
My point regarding the sloppy wiring: I noted no chassis ground. I noted no grommets on plate wires (does he know that the plate voltage swings higher than B+?), power taken off the wring pin on the rectifier tube, no sense of the induced currents from poorly dressed heater wires etc. Now, taken as a complete picture, this points to a lack of technical knowledge. Note that there was not a single attempt to answer any technical or safety question. The only real response was that the capacitors were not held in with hot melt glue! Note that he did not say what he used, just that what it was not. Those type of responses are going raise peoples interest, and further adds to the safety concerns.
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GlowBug it's your choice to keep defending what can't be defended. I'm beginning to change my mind about posting those pics, you will have nothing to say after that. Unless you're crazy, that is.
Oh and BTW.
I don't build amp to sell purely as a hobby and I don't build 10 amps a year if I have the time.
Every tubes amps project I built is purely relied on people who knows.
And I never claim mine is the best or looks better than any ones.
If you've search what I post I'n the past all you see are all questions.
I don't build amp to sell purely as a hobby and I don't build 10 amps a year if I have the time.
Every tubes amps project I built is purely relied on people who knows.
And I never claim mine is the best or looks better than any ones.
If you've search what I post I'n the past all you see are all questions.
Dude I don't shrug it off, please don't put words in my mouth. I have never been an advocate of the 2 prong.
This issue raises legitimate questions on how the "big guys" gain a Class II cert.
But if you insist on going in circles, round and round we go...weeeeeee
This issue raises legitimate questions on how the "big guys" gain a Class II cert.
But if you insist on going in circles, round and round we go...weeeeeee
No one that I've read has stated there is a relationship between safety and good sounding amps.
To meet certification the grommet would have to be agency certified/recognized. Find a manufacturers specification calling out UL certification for a rubber grommet and I'll concede the point that a rubber grommet does not meet agency requirements.
This still leaves reuse of vintage transformers as an issue since agencies only certify NEW components. Even NOS will not meet code today.
As far as the lamps go , I suspect they are double insulated by virtue of not using grommets but strain reliefs, along with other insulating materials. The last lamp I disassembled had a strain relief at the cable entry point, and two more insulators on the wire passage, plus the impregnated paper insulator between the socket internals and the metal shell.
But we are not talking about household lamps here, we are talking about vacuum tube audio amplifiers which fall under different document specifications.
Notice the UL / CAS approval on this strain relief:
http://www.newark.com/pdfs/datasheets/spc/46N7809.pdf
But this only addresses the entry issue. There are several more that have to be addressed to meet code.
To meet certification the grommet would have to be agency certified/recognized. Find a manufacturers specification calling out UL certification for a rubber grommet and I'll concede the point that a rubber grommet does not meet agency requirements.
This still leaves reuse of vintage transformers as an issue since agencies only certify NEW components. Even NOS will not meet code today.
As far as the lamps go , I suspect they are double insulated by virtue of not using grommets but strain reliefs, along with other insulating materials. The last lamp I disassembled had a strain relief at the cable entry point, and two more insulators on the wire passage, plus the impregnated paper insulator between the socket internals and the metal shell.
But we are not talking about household lamps here, we are talking about vacuum tube audio amplifiers which fall under different document specifications.
Notice the UL / CAS approval on this strain relief:
http://www.newark.com/pdfs/datasheets/spc/46N7809.pdf
But this only addresses the entry issue. There are several more that have to be addressed to meet code.
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Might I hazard a guess that there might be a relationship between safety and good sounding amps? If they tried a grounded chassis and ended up with a ground loop, but lacked the technical expertise to fix it, removing the earth makes it 'sound better' 😉
Well, perhaps the salvaged components, poor lead dress, and haphazard layout are more relevant to performance. Hard to say, the only performance claim they've published is a clearly fraudulent distortion spec.
I didn't hear anyone claim that the power cord limited the sound of the amp...
I'm not sure of the current status, but 2 wire systems have been approved for certain lighting fixtures in some situations. I think that is now changing in most countries; for example shop lights now have 3 wire cords.
Also if you have a house with a 2 wire system, you are not required to upgrade it. The reality is there is still a lot of 2 wire out there and will be probably forever or until the standards change ;-)
I'm not sure all that justifies building and selling high voltage audio gear with floating exposed metal chassis or line connected gear with the chassis bonded to the neutral. Either of these options has well known safety issues.
With a 3 wire system, what keeps the chassis from going live is a separate continuous return path to ground, i.e. the third wire, and the rules around it's implementation.
As for the other arguments, I think it's cool that Steve found a way to market hifi tube amps to people younger than 50.
One more point with regards to safety, I do not accept the argument that "it is just for me" as justifying disregard to safety. This is not meant to offend anyone else as well but think about what will happen to the amp once you are gone.
I certainly don't want any of my children, grandchildren, or any one else to be injured because I took a shortcut and did not do everything I could within reason to make the amp as safe as I can.
Every amp I've built (four guitar and three stereo) have used an IEC three prong socket, fuse, switch and proper ground to chassis.
What is the cost of doing so? Less than $5?
As for commercial endeavors, for someone to skimp on $5 on an amp that will sell for over $1500 is just bad business.
Look at the marketing opportunity "Designed to meet Modern Safety code", "Fully Safety Grounded chassis", "Modern Fused for your Safety", blah, blah, blah...
I certainly don't want any of my children, grandchildren, or any one else to be injured because I took a shortcut and did not do everything I could within reason to make the amp as safe as I can.
Every amp I've built (four guitar and three stereo) have used an IEC three prong socket, fuse, switch and proper ground to chassis.
What is the cost of doing so? Less than $5?
As for commercial endeavors, for someone to skimp on $5 on an amp that will sell for over $1500 is just bad business.
Look at the marketing opportunity "Designed to meet Modern Safety code", "Fully Safety Grounded chassis", "Modern Fused for your Safety", blah, blah, blah...
TheGimp, I suspect that it is not the cost saving, but the lack of ability/desire to fix any resulting ground loops. As stated earlier, these guys don't learn theory, they just learn how to build like the 'teacher'.
There is a blue single-ended 807 amp on his page that supposedly makes 25 watts per channel thanks to the "large envelope" of the tube. I wish I was taught by a "master" to get 25 watts from a single 807, now THAT is performance. I wonder if the tubes are cryo treated or something?
Maybe its is using a Turbo Encabulator circuit?
There is no law requiring one to get CSA or UL certification to sell in the USA or Canada.
However, doing so helps mitigate responsibility in the event of litigation. UL and CSA certification show due diligence in designing a product to be safe.
Most commercial Vacuum Tube amps do not have UL or CSA. It may be that it is not possible to get UL with a vacuum tube output utilizing a transformer (*1). I'm not sure on this. However, designing to meet UL and CSA with proper documentation of the design and testing to meet the appropriate specifications should go a long way in court.
*1 - Single fault test with no load on the output transformer may result in breakdown of the OPT. This could lead to a fire which is not acceptable under UL testing guidelines.
However, doing so helps mitigate responsibility in the event of litigation. UL and CSA certification show due diligence in designing a product to be safe.
Most commercial Vacuum Tube amps do not have UL or CSA. It may be that it is not possible to get UL with a vacuum tube output utilizing a transformer (*1). I'm not sure on this. However, designing to meet UL and CSA with proper documentation of the design and testing to meet the appropriate specifications should go a long way in court.
*1 - Single fault test with no load on the output transformer may result in breakdown of the OPT. This could lead to a fire which is not acceptable under UL testing guidelines.
Show me an amp that I have made without a ground! You won't find one, even my breadboard amps are grounded. Don't tell me what I like to learn.
If you buy an old radio from a garage sale, it is your responsibility.
If you buy a hand made amp with vintage parts, it is also your responsibility.
Those guys are not making any certification claims, it's your responsibility.
I watched an episode of judge Judy the other day.(laugh away). Anyhow a plaintiff was suing for a second hand computer he bought in which a replacement cord had a meltdown. He wanted damages and potential damages, I thought the seller would be in hot water.
It turns out they got nothing, she told them they should have bought a new computer if they wanted recourse, they should have bought a new one from the store, not from some guy fixing computers in his kitchen.
Turns out according to your laws you do have some responsibility for your own actions.
Judge Judy? Ha!
I've been to court three times over ****. I won each time. It is the sellers responsibility. Tort law.
I don't care what a TV actor says.
I've been to court three times over ****. I won each time. It is the sellers responsibility. Tort law.
I don't care what a TV actor says.
"No, I don't use a paraphase or a floating paraphase. Sorry but I don't. This is not rocket science bubbala. Never was and never will be. I don't use Magnavox circuitry either. Never did. I did have a revelation long ago when my Magnavox 175 chassis significantly bettered my Marantz 8b but that was only the start of the journey. You've read the Olsher. Read it again. I offer no help. None." ---kqvkq9
"Perhaps there was something there. There was. Most used a circuit rather similar to that in the Quad II units that I had grown fond of. " ---kqvkq9
-----
Checking the Quad II schematic does bring up a floating paraphase splitter... as do the Magnavox's.
Since Ardvarkash10 and Cassiel did go to the bother of re-reading Olsher's review and came to the conclusion that the floating-paraphase inverter was mentioned, could maybe Globug comment or clarify on this please? (apparently having been a student)
-----
"Does anyone know of a HIFI amp that used this type of PI?" ---M Gregg
"let's move to more technical issues like paraphase phase splitters problems . " ---DimitrisAR
"Oh man, I've just found out he likes paraphase phase splitters. Respect. The man knows something." ---Cassiel
Some members obviously would like to explore the floating paraphase if it is relevant. Could be an interesting discussion.
"Perhaps there was something there. There was. Most used a circuit rather similar to that in the Quad II units that I had grown fond of. " ---kqvkq9
-----
Checking the Quad II schematic does bring up a floating paraphase splitter... as do the Magnavox's.
Since Ardvarkash10 and Cassiel did go to the bother of re-reading Olsher's review and came to the conclusion that the floating-paraphase inverter was mentioned, could maybe Globug comment or clarify on this please? (apparently having been a student)
-----
"Does anyone know of a HIFI amp that used this type of PI?" ---M Gregg
"let's move to more technical issues like paraphase phase splitters problems . " ---DimitrisAR
"Oh man, I've just found out he likes paraphase phase splitters. Respect. The man knows something." ---Cassiel
Some members obviously would like to explore the floating paraphase if it is relevant. Could be an interesting discussion.
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Grommets do not fix the safety problem. The two failures that I saw were both due to breakdown of the vintage insulation in the transformers.
I had a modern Hammond power transformer fail in one of my own amps. The transformer had gotten wet because I left the amp near a window during a hurricane several years ago. A month or so had passed between the storm and the time I plugged the amp back in. The amp functioned normally for several months before blowing the line fuse. Upon replacing the fuse it again worked for a few weeks and then blew another fuse. I noticed that the power transformer was much hotter than a usual warm running Hammond. Autopsy revealed a leakage current of 50 mA or so from the line to the transformer case. This current went up as the transformer got hot. I took the transformer apart to find considerable rust and green slime inside it. Again, the amp functioned normally until the leakage current caused the line fuse to blow. If this amp was not properly grounded my turntable and CD player would have been capable of delivering a severe shock while the system appeared to work normally. Amp shown in first picture. Every metal oblect is grounded even though the amp case is plastic. I built this one about 8 years ago
Back to the original topic....If you play in a metal band....you need a metal amp! I saw this one on stage at Lollapalooza.
Dickinson Amplification - Home
I don't claim to be a master. I can claim the ability to extract 25 watts from an 807. I learned this in my high school vocational electronics program which was 3 hours per day for 3 years (1967 to 1970). I have no pictures from that era, but I do have a recent picture of a Tubelab SSE breadboard extracting 25 WPC from some 6BQ6GA's. I assume that the large envelope of the 807 would be more illuminating🙂
The last photo is just a random picture of an amp that I made about 6 years ago. It is the one that I use daily.
I had a modern Hammond power transformer fail in one of my own amps. The transformer had gotten wet because I left the amp near a window during a hurricane several years ago. A month or so had passed between the storm and the time I plugged the amp back in. The amp functioned normally for several months before blowing the line fuse. Upon replacing the fuse it again worked for a few weeks and then blew another fuse. I noticed that the power transformer was much hotter than a usual warm running Hammond. Autopsy revealed a leakage current of 50 mA or so from the line to the transformer case. This current went up as the transformer got hot. I took the transformer apart to find considerable rust and green slime inside it. Again, the amp functioned normally until the leakage current caused the line fuse to blow. If this amp was not properly grounded my turntable and CD player would have been capable of delivering a severe shock while the system appeared to work normally. Amp shown in first picture. Every metal oblect is grounded even though the amp case is plastic. I built this one about 8 years ago
Back to the original topic....If you play in a metal band....you need a metal amp! I saw this one on stage at Lollapalooza.
Dickinson Amplification - Home
I don't claim to be a master. I can claim the ability to extract 25 watts from an 807. I learned this in my high school vocational electronics program which was 3 hours per day for 3 years (1967 to 1970). I have no pictures from that era, but I do have a recent picture of a Tubelab SSE breadboard extracting 25 WPC from some 6BQ6GA's. I assume that the large envelope of the 807 would be more illuminating🙂
The last photo is just a random picture of an amp that I made about 6 years ago. It is the one that I use daily.
Attachments
Right, everyone here knows what is safe and what is not and by this time I EXPECT Lance and Steve to know about it too. He seems to be using a variant of the paraphase and a lot capacitance in his power supplies. Maybe this thread will start a Renaissance of some forgotten circuits. I'm interested.
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