Hi, I don't understand, you'll have to go some to get near it, rgds, sreten.
The scope means you want to approach it, as sensibly budget as is possible.
Adolf said: "Martin's right here. When you buy a pair of speakers that cost you 2000 euros, you don't get very exotic drivers. Usually, the driver cost for a pair like that - when bought at retail prices - would be around 200-300 euros a pair. Maybe even less. What you pay for is research and development. The Jamo OB is no different from that. They've had to do maybe hundreds of man hours of development work to arrive at a point where they can sell you that thing. The component cost is just marginal in that 10k you're paying for the speaker. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Having built these things myself from basically scratch, I have some sense of how many hours of work you need to arrive at a specific point. And I believe many others here have even a better sense of that too. But sometimes I feel not everybody understands, that the customer has to pay for the R&D too. These things are sold in very small volumes, thus the cost of R&D per unit is increased compared to usual off-the-shelf-stuff. I also have the tendency of not counting the cost of my work when I evaluate how cheaply I've arrived at some result. That's the folly of working for yourself."
Cost of R&D is unfortunately high for a simple reason. Very few customers, each pays high price for R&D.
Compare this to a Computer chip, high end Graphics card or LCD/Plasma TV, cost of R&D could be hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions to develop but with millions of customers........
Having built these things myself from basically scratch, I have some sense of how many hours of work you need to arrive at a specific point. And I believe many others here have even a better sense of that too. But sometimes I feel not everybody understands, that the customer has to pay for the R&D too. These things are sold in very small volumes, thus the cost of R&D per unit is increased compared to usual off-the-shelf-stuff. I also have the tendency of not counting the cost of my work when I evaluate how cheaply I've arrived at some result. That's the folly of working for yourself."
Cost of R&D is unfortunately high for a simple reason. Very few customers, each pays high price for R&D.
Compare this to a Computer chip, high end Graphics card or LCD/Plasma TV, cost of R&D could be hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions to develop but with millions of customers........
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Those who think that R&D is the major part of the price haven't looked at the mark-ups along the audio distribution chain.
This is the more obvious part. This goes without saying, or at least it shouldn't need mentioning to grown ups in the Western world!
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The customers pay for everything. That is the company's warehouse and manufacturing costs, who makes the darned thing, marketing, the living of the employees, the logistics, the marketing and rent of the guy who sells and demoes the speaker, and so on. Still, the part of R&D should'nt be undermined, I think.
Still, the analogy to computer chips was quite good in my opinion. Something that can be fairly easily replicated in the billions, if necessary. The more you make, the cheaper they come. The curve in this is steeper than with things you have to manufacture. I work in this business, so I have some understanding of it...
Sorry for the offtopic...
But regarding going beyond the Jamos, it's fairly simple. You just design and manufacture something you like more. The thing with DIY is that you can tailor something that suits your specific tastes. That's something Jamo - or any other manufacturer to that matter - cannot do. They'll have to make something more universally applicable. An argument I've gone through with a friend in this hobby too over and over again. His preferences are something so different, that we probably will never agree on a specific system. Plus we're both very biased in our own ways. But especially for him, the DIY way is the only way, because he's in a search for such a different sound, that there will never be a commercial product for him. (And who am I to tell him he's wrong...)
For the sake of building I think that one Eminence Beta15 and the Zaph units would be a very good starting point, if I am to believe myself. Two Betas will in fact be too efficient to match the midrange. Such a speaker would go to over 100 dB on normal music without any X-max hit.
I also agree with sreten about the Beta (and Alpha) peaks, they should be notched away but preferably with a filter over the + and - terminals out of the signal path. The Zaph 14 midrange would be easy to HP with its even impedance and what sreten probably already noted about Zaph's crossover: it incorporates an 8.7 kHz notch in the LP section.
A cheap price in Europe for an Eminence Beta would be around 115 $ + freight. Thomann has them, they don't sell Alphas. What the Zaph units would cost bringing over here I don't have a clue.
The Jamo R909 was developed by a retiring chief engineer as his wanted cost-no-objective last project people at Jamo tell.
/Erling
I also agree with sreten about the Beta (and Alpha) peaks, they should be notched away but preferably with a filter over the + and - terminals out of the signal path. The Zaph 14 midrange would be easy to HP with its even impedance and what sreten probably already noted about Zaph's crossover: it incorporates an 8.7 kHz notch in the LP section.
A cheap price in Europe for an Eminence Beta would be around 115 $ + freight. Thomann has them, they don't sell Alphas. What the Zaph units would cost bringing over here I don't have a clue.
The Jamo R909 was developed by a retiring chief engineer as his wanted cost-no-objective last project people at Jamo tell.
/Erling
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vs. "Beyond the Ariel" thread - which is also a think piece thread, and is not dissimilar in some respects (..i.e. dipole mids-to-bass desire, at least initially).
..Frankly I'm at a loss as to why the Jamo design would be the basis for another design. 😕 It's not a particularly good design in many respects, nor is it a relatively uncomplicated design that would be easy for DIY'ers. Basically there are better designs both more and less complex already available to the DIY community (..and at different price-points as well).
BTW, the R909 is selling for 7k US new. Apparently low consumer interest resulted in cutting the price in half.
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Hi,
Two Beta's would be overdoing it, but one is not better than two GRS's.
Your musings on the notch filter are not right IMO, you could use a
parallel LC after the bass unit c/o, but why should you if you can
use a series with the main bass inductor with one component.
There is no effective difference, at all.
You can't use a filter across + and -, it will have no effect
other than blowing up your amplifier, shortly or eventually.
rgds, sreten.
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Have a look at your neighboring country. That's where I buy most of my stuff from.
I don't know about the Zaph units, but in my design I cross over the Betas around 120 using a first order Solen Split, which actually sounds better than a second order Linkwitz-Riley, or a 2nd order Bessel. The efficiency is much lower than the nominal efficiency of these drivers at those frequencies. To match 95dB midrange with stated crossover point, you need two betas in a >60cm width baffle. And punch they will deliver...
Don't mention. You just might find something useful there. And the owner is usually very friendly to DIY-people. If somewhat "finnish" in communication... You probably know... But he has good prices on Hammond and Eminence stuff...
Sitting here reading these posts and listening to Skrillex......Double 15's and Dubstep done right.........😀....as back in school.....it's all about potential.
Let the designing begin.
Assuming a beer budget 2-way passive 15-inch woofer by Full-Range driver. We have a feel, if you will, an agreement to disagree (so far) regarding the woofer.
How about the FR driver? A $125 US maximum or what? What power (Watts) handling capacity?
The Festrex pair I heard Papa Nelson demonstrate at Burning Amp was in the range of $42,000.00 for the pair. The woofers were Beta 15’s.
What will we be building? I kinda want to try this one. Fostex FE168EZ 6.5" Full Range Sigma Series: Madisound Speaker Store
DT
Assuming a beer budget 2-way passive 15-inch woofer by Full-Range driver. We have a feel, if you will, an agreement to disagree (so far) regarding the woofer.
How about the FR driver? A $125 US maximum or what? What power (Watts) handling capacity?
The Festrex pair I heard Papa Nelson demonstrate at Burning Amp was in the range of $42,000.00 for the pair. The woofers were Beta 15’s.
What will we be building? I kinda want to try this one. Fostex FE168EZ 6.5" Full Range Sigma Series: Madisound Speaker Store
DT
Feastrex is beer budget? What kind of beer do they drink in Sactown? 
You don't have to go $$ crazy to make this sound good.
You don't have to go $$ crazy to make this sound good.
Glad to see you're in the planning phase......but have you considered the active bottom approach? For a few $$$ more than the cost of the passive LP components, you could install a pair of modest plate amps and still be on target with a 2nd order filter at 200hz.....and lest not forget the load a parallel pair of Alpha 15's will present to an amplifier. Expect impedance to drop to less than 3ohms between 60-150hz. Best to consider the system as a whole first. My money's on a pair of plate amps for $200 or so delivering enough reserve power. And don't forget that most plate amps have the ability to be modded for different Q function filters for boost and HP filters.......which might be extremely useful in an OB. Now we're really talkin DIY!...........imported beer budget, but still beer.😛
Pano,
I am just tossing it out there.
What price range does a beer budget FR driver fall into?
I heard the Festrex drivers at Burning Amp hosted at the Sausalito Yacht Club on the north end of the Golden Gate Bridge right on the San Francisco Bay. Not my price range either.
Mayhem13.
I am all in on the active CO and separate power amplifiers. I am using a Rane MA-6, six 150-watt amplifiers in a single package, a 900 watt six pack. I had to give up a few cases to pay for it. http://www.ebay.com/itm/RANE-MA-6S-...289?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20bf471581 The first one of these OB’s I fabricated uses a pair of 10 inch Audax HT240G0’s in a folded up piece of plywood Linkwitz style for each woofer cabinet.
I the spirit of this thread I am likeing the single 15 with a passive staggered CO.
My beer budget is a case of Corona in the pantry. A German style beer with a Mexican name made in California.
DT
I am just tossing it out there.
What price range does a beer budget FR driver fall into?
I heard the Festrex drivers at Burning Amp hosted at the Sausalito Yacht Club on the north end of the Golden Gate Bridge right on the San Francisco Bay. Not my price range either.
Mayhem13.
I am all in on the active CO and separate power amplifiers. I am using a Rane MA-6, six 150-watt amplifiers in a single package, a 900 watt six pack. I had to give up a few cases to pay for it. http://www.ebay.com/itm/RANE-MA-6S-...289?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20bf471581 The first one of these OB’s I fabricated uses a pair of 10 inch Audax HT240G0’s in a folded up piece of plywood Linkwitz style for each woofer cabinet.
I the spirit of this thread I am likeing the single 15 with a passive staggered CO.
My beer budget is a case of Corona in the pantry. A German style beer with a Mexican name made in California.
DT
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Price is derived from:
-corporate costs;
-marketing costs;
-how performance compares to similarly priced competitor's products;
-with the above points in mind the product in question is being sent to the R&D guys as a set of guidelines together with accompanying nursing budget guy;
-R&D is a no cost option, as it is included in the corpotate costs already, you don't outsource R&D in such companies. FurtherR&D guys are engineers with the appropriate training operating under scope time frame which is already provisioned in the targeted price range regarding the targeted performance;
-final manufacture price is sconto out of targeted showroom price tag with precisely foreseen/estimated and then substracted warehouse/delivery/retailer profit costs and manufacturer profit included.
They dont scratch their heads for the price tags. The Jamos are priced as a pair of Tannoy Glenair 15's, so they should perform accordingly.
$10.000 price class is not for millionaires, it's rather for upper middle class self employed people who will choose by performance... I know such a man that is 29 years older than my 29 who fits the description, is a fan of Tannoy and even if he is not the biggest fan of DIY would be ubberly happy if someone supplies him with even better sound at lower price... and he doesn't care for the magnet size as well.
Last 20 years made some serious difference in the freely available knowledge and the elementary base within reach for DIY tempted and capable enthusiasts.
As for the Alpha/Beta/magnet size and so on considerations, they are irrelevant to me and they have been irrelevant to every single person who have auditioned my OB's.
Every driver is a set of useful parameters in the considered application and nothing more. I don't even need to look at it. I just fire up the Mathcad explorer and have fun.
Best regards!
-corporate costs;
-marketing costs;
-how performance compares to similarly priced competitor's products;
-with the above points in mind the product in question is being sent to the R&D guys as a set of guidelines together with accompanying nursing budget guy;
-R&D is a no cost option, as it is included in the corpotate costs already, you don't outsource R&D in such companies. FurtherR&D guys are engineers with the appropriate training operating under scope time frame which is already provisioned in the targeted price range regarding the targeted performance;
-final manufacture price is sconto out of targeted showroom price tag with precisely foreseen/estimated and then substracted warehouse/delivery/retailer profit costs and manufacturer profit included.
They dont scratch their heads for the price tags. The Jamos are priced as a pair of Tannoy Glenair 15's, so they should perform accordingly.
$10.000 price class is not for millionaires, it's rather for upper middle class self employed people who will choose by performance... I know such a man that is 29 years older than my 29 who fits the description, is a fan of Tannoy and even if he is not the biggest fan of DIY would be ubberly happy if someone supplies him with even better sound at lower price... and he doesn't care for the magnet size as well.
Last 20 years made some serious difference in the freely available knowledge and the elementary base within reach for DIY tempted and capable enthusiasts.
As for the Alpha/Beta/magnet size and so on considerations, they are irrelevant to me and they have been irrelevant to every single person who have auditioned my OB's.
Every driver is a set of useful parameters in the considered application and nothing more. I don't even need to look at it. I just fire up the Mathcad explorer and have fun.
Best regards!
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Good question, I don't know. Under $100 for sure, 1/2 that would be better. Maybe the total price of drivers with a consideration given to the cost of the crossover and lumber would be a better metric.
With 2 GRS 15s, a Vifa FR and crossover parts coming to about $100 per side, that's about - what? - 7 cases of Corona per side. I leave it to you to figure out which is more fun. 😛
sreten,
you are right about the notch, my misthinking, in this case just a cap over the inductor will be good. We are talking outside the passband.
Regarding the Beta and the GRS I firmly think you are wrong. One Beta would be better than any number GRSes. Your answer to my Peter Comeau Hi-Fi World link above just is not about what PC writes in the article. Better to accept that there are other wievs perhaps better founded.
Pano, the Vifas are not very sensitive and the GRses probably nothing compared to the Manzanita Peerlesses. I have simulated 2 Betas together with a line of 4 Vifas. Which would be interesting to propose. I only have two Vifas myself to play around with.
/Erling
you are right about the notch, my misthinking, in this case just a cap over the inductor will be good. We are talking outside the passband.
Regarding the Beta and the GRS I firmly think you are wrong. One Beta would be better than any number GRSes. Your answer to my Peter Comeau Hi-Fi World link above just is not about what PC writes in the article. Better to accept that there are other wievs perhaps better founded.
Pano, the Vifas are not very sensitive and the GRses probably nothing compared to the Manzanita Peerlesses. I have simulated 2 Betas together with a line of 4 Vifas. Which would be interesting to propose. I only have two Vifas myself to play around with.
/Erling
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