The Hundred-Buck Amp Challenge

33-3026 specs and demo

It appears that the RS 33-3026 is an Audio-Technica product, the ATR60C (discontinued), with the following specs:


SPECIFICATIONS
ELEMENT Condenser
POLAR PATTERN Omnidirectional
FREQUENCY RESPONSE 50 - 13,000 Hz
OPEN CIRCUIT SENSITIVITY -48 dB +/- 3 dB, 1 kHz at 1 Pa POWER REQUIREMENTS 1-10V DC
CABLE 6.0' (1.8 m) terminated with 3.5 mm stereo mini-plug


If I had to guess why it was discontinued I'd say that perhaps it was that this little mic was cutting too deeply into the sales of higher end products. It's just too good for the money. It was selling for $8 (Audio-Technica) and $12 (RS). By the way, I also had (have?) another RS lav mic similar to the 33-3013, and it's just nowhere near as sonically accurate as this little 33-3026.

Check out the You Tube video of the 33-3026 mic being used to capture a Martin guitar.

Martin DCX1E Sound Review 1 of 2 - YouTube

Martin DCX1E Sound Review 2 of 2 - YouTube

True, the guy is sick. Literally. And there is much about these videos to NOT recommend--okay, complete disclosure--about which to be downright embarrassed! (I do not know this person. I found these videos by googling the 33-3026.) The audio goes on the fritz more than once, but I am SURE that this has nothing to do with the mic. I put these links here only because it does provide a means for you to hear what I mean when I say that this little mic is superb.

If Amazon has them for $20, get one.

Don't wait. Just do it.
 
Apples and Apples

Haven't we forgotten a few several things in our BOM, George?

If this submission were simply an entry into the challenge as specified, there would be little point in making much of its clever little attempt to show how little effort is required to beat the price target. But we're all adults here and we know that this is not really the case. This amp was explicitly declared to be taken as proving the ease of building an amp "for less" than another certain "mere handful of parts." So the HONEST question for THIS little big head is, "Did it accomplish that?" Well, if making a FAIR comparison is any part of the answer to that question, that answer is not yet apparent.

After all, this little big head, like the brag it attempts to be-little, is also an example of an exaggerated sense of self-importance.

I think the tone of the criticism, to be in character with the tone of the original (whose author isn't George and understandably hasn't been seen in a while since the last time he showed up to tell me I needed to have a thicker skin, which, since I've plainly shown that I do, I think it's fair enough that I should expect the same from others), should go something like this:

Speaking of a "mere handful of parts," how does the DIYer put all of this together, George? There appears to be no way of connecting all these parts into a single whole, unless one stipulates that #12 solid wire, bent approximately into the shape of a cage is to be used to give the circuit some semblance of rigidity. There is no circuit board, not even a few terminal strips on which to fasten the parts. And if a circuit board is used, then what about some insulating spacers to keep it from shorting against the chassis? After all, the original little big head had all three of these things priced into its total. Moreover, so was every nut, washer, and machine screw, and a real, authentic solderable ground lug included in the kit. And to meet the exaggerated challenge--which said nothing about needing KNOBS, only that the thing needed to be plug-and-playable--I was careful to point out that my challenge entry's BOM didn't include any knobs even if it would still succeed if I added them in there. But if we're going to honestly claim we've bested the price of the amp that started this, George, then it really isn't very chivalrous of you to forget to put KNOBS on your pots, now is it? For it was truly the case that the kit builder who bought that $69 amp you haven't yet certifiably bested needed only to supply a CHASSIS, a POWER CORD, and a SPEAKER--not to mention the wire and solder that goes without saying in all of these babies. That's all. And what he got for his money included a HEADPHONES JACK and a SWITCH to turn off the speaker when playing into the headphones late at night. I don't see ANY of these things in the "proof" of THIS pudding.

Now, using the rather generously applied arithmetic of the original complaint, which boosted the price on my "mere handful of parts" to $100 after adding nothing more than a power cord, a box, and the shipping, I'd say that adding all of these missing parts into this little big head would take its price up considerably. Probably into the neighborhood of about $50, don't you all think? (Please, let's not forget the cost of the etch resist and ferric sulfate needed to make the PC board, else again it's all just pretense.) Then were it to be offered on ebay and ebay's fees added to the cost of the materials, it would--lo and behold--it would have to cost around $60 for George to break even.

Now I'm not saying that George needs to sell HIS mere handful of parts on ebay to make his amp a valid effort or that a DIYer needs to spend more than about $45 bucks to build George's amp, not including the chassis and power cord.

But I didn't spend any more than about $35 to build mine, either. (And furthermore, it's a quality build with a headphones jack.)

And so I still haven't seen my long-ago-admitted-foolish boast PROVEN false, despite the considerable effort that has been made by a rather large number of people to CREATE THE IMPRESSION that such was necessarily easy to do.

Unless it's okay to sweep some things under the rug in order to make a favorable comparison between your apples and my apples.

In which case, all bets are off.
 
When I first read this my thoughts could not be printed here, so I just walked away. Now that my blood pressure returned to normal I will attempt to communicate in a rational manner.

"mere handful of parts"

According to the search engine here those are your words, not mine

If this submission were simply an entry into the challenge as specified, there would be little point in making much of its clever little attempt to show how little effort is required to beat the price target. But we're all adults here and we know that this is not really the case.

I have stated since the beginning that I have no intention of winning this challenge. I also stated that you were the default winner since you were the only one that met the challenge criteria. There is no reason to return to the attitude that started this thread.

Speaking of a "mere handful of parts," how does the DIYer put all of this together, George?

I currently sell PC boards and parts for HiFi amp kits. I have been doing this for 6 or 7 years. During that time I have received multiple requests for guitar amps. Every one of my HiFi designs have been developed publicly, either on this forum or on my web site. This is so that an experienced DIYer can build one from the information given any way they see fit. IF I decide that this design will be one that I sell, I will make PC boards available and demonstrate one or more methods of constructing the complete unit from materials available at Home Depot or another suitable home improvement store.

But if we're going to honestly claim we've bested the price of the amp that started this.

I am not intending to claim any such thing. If I remember correctly it was you who said something about a $100 price target being too easy. I stated that I would make a low $$$ amp, and I did exactly that. My only goal was to make an amp that I would use myself for low $$$. I did not define the price target.

George, then it really isn't very chivalrous of you to forget to put KNOBS on your pots, now is it?........But I didn't spend any more than about $35 to build mine, either.......I'd say that adding all of these missing parts into this little big head would take its price up considerably. Probably into the neighborhood of about $50, don't you all think? (Please, let's not forget the cost of the etch resist and ferric sulfate needed to make the PC board, else again it's all just pretense.) Then were it to be offered on ebay and ebay's fees added to the cost of the materials, it would--lo and behold--it would have to cost around $60 for George to break even. Now I'm not saying that George needs to sell HIS mere handful of parts on ebay to make his amp a valid effort or that a DIYer needs to spend more than about $45 bucks to build George's amp, not including the chassis and power cord.

In the back of my mind I was looking at a design that I can sell in COMPLETE kit form for about $100 through my web site. I assume you know something about selling kits, work backwards to find your ELECTRICAL parts costs. They must be under $40 including the PCB. And the final product must be about $60, you are right here. I have been selling electronics kits (mostly at hamfests) for about 35 years, I know what I am doing.

Here I simply listed the single piece part price from major distributors here so that someone can duplicate the design if they choose. I do the same for my HiFi designs sold on my web site. I will buy my parts for less than the single piece part price.

Unless it's okay to sweep some things under the rug in order to make a favorable comparison between your apples and my apples.

There is no "apples to apples" comparison and there never was. My design bears no resemblence to yours, probably doesn't sound the same and WILL NOT look the same. My cabinet / chassis / mounting scheme as it exists today SUCKS, was an exercise in frustration, and will not be used in the design that I may offer for sale. The tennis player that sold Canon Cameras once said "image is everything". He was right. It's got to look like a guitar amp if you want to sell it!

The amp as it exists today does not have any knobs on it. I stated clearly that it is NOT finished. I posted the BOM as it exists TODAY so that others could see what went into the amp, should anyone be interested in duplicating it. I have posted enough info so that many of the DIYers that frequent this forum could indeed build one.

All of my creations get names (image, remember). Some other posters in this thread have named their amps, and I gave mine the name "Little Big Head". In reality this one is a bit too little for that name since it only makes 2 watts. Amp 2.2 is more deserving of that name since it IS loud and can do quiet.

If you want to make this into a urinating contest, I choose not to play. I have other things to do, and my blood pressure is already moderated by medication. If this remains a forum for us to exchange ideas in a peaceful manner, I will continue to post my designs.
 
If this remains a forum for us to exchange ideas in a peaceful manner, I will continue to post my designs.

Frankly, I see no way of saving this one, not after Tubekit's outburst. I have nothing against him, he just gets mad for the wrong reasons. Still, I will post my sound clips so people can judge the quality of sound you can get for very little money. That was my challenge and it is over now. It's done.

I did enjoy the good company here and the exchange of ideas as well. Too bad it has had a sour ending. I don't expect BST to be happy about this so he's unlikely to return. Without him this challenge is officially dead.
 
I got lost when the other day when some comment was made something along the line of the rest of us were "mere noise." I forget who said it, but that was a game killer as well.

But regardless,

my contest project went dormant for a lot of reasons, time, time & more time, as well as commitment to other business activity.

I have read each and every post here in this "Challenge" thread, I have seen a lot of neat idea's/solutions and it was always obvious that all of the criteria could be easily achieved.

But for me personally,
I ask why bother other than for recreational purposes.
I can put together any amp I desire, but for me or my needs, I want amps that I can run into darn near any decent music store for a replacement tube.

Anyone whom gigs multi-state or regionally knows why that can be an issue.
Face it, unless you plan on packing back-ups to back-ups you are not going to find these tubes in frozen fingers creek Alaska.

Case point,
Brothers band takes 1 of my amps on the road, 5 shows in 2 days over 600 miles away, pre-amp tube decides to die a nice cracking death.
Since they do not travel with a tech, and " Remembering " to throw the tech box in the trailer seems to elude them regularly, a quick stop at a music store is the only savior.
Common amp tubes, great, fairly easy to locate most anywhere, but some of the $2.00 specials? ummm not so much.

I think all of you guys did a great job in this contest, I see a multiple tie,
More than 2way tie!!!!

The rules should be like baseball, get too ugly and complain to much, you are OUT of the game!
 
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I got lost when the other day when some comment was made something along the line of the rest of us were "mere noise."


I didn't say that. This is The Hundred-Buck Amp Challenge thread right? The only people who were following the rules of this challenge were Tubekit and Tubelab. The rest were just decorating this thread. Hey, noise is unwanted but good decorators come handy. If my analogy was a game killer to you, well, you weren't playing the game in the first place. I have a way of talking that sometimes gets on some people's nerves. You should know me better by now, I'm not a serious guy.
 
I want amps that I can run into darn near any decent music store for a replacement tube.

That is a requirement for anything that is marketed to musicians who rely on someone else to fix their amps, and a near requirement for everyone else. For those designs there are only 11 possible tubes to choose from. They are 5U4, 5Y3, 5AR4, 6L6GC, EL34, 6550, KT88, EL84, 12AU7, 12AT7 and 12AX7.

There is a small but growing contingent of people who tinker, mod, and even build their own amps. That is the target of this thread.
 
That is a requirement for anything that is marketed to musicians who rely on someone else to fix their amps, and a near requirement for everyone else. For those designs there are only 11 possible tubes to choose from. They are 5U4, 5Y3, 5AR4, 6L6GC, EL34, 6550, KT88, EL84, 12AU7, 12AT7 and 12AX7.

There is a small but growing contingent of people who tinker, mod, and even build their own amps. That is the target of this thread.


Oh,
I know that more than you could ever imagine, My comments were in no way a criticism of the challenge or the designs in this thread..

I also agree there is a small but growing contingent of people whom tinker and mod their gear. (lord knows I have restored enough vintage amps)

Hand in hand with that, there is a much larger contingent of musicians who are now moving into tube amps for the first time. Were talking guys/gals that have never ever seen a tube up until recently.
These may have been common day for us old schooler's from the 50's but just remember, from the consumer point of view, we ARE the minority.
At NAMM last year I attended a couple seminar's and statistical numbers on entry through mid level gear were staggering.

Back around post 11 you commented to my question/comment.
How about something you (or another guitar player) would want for themselves.

I am planning to dig out as many old breadboard as i can find wire stuff together until I get a sound that I would keep. It's got to be something new and unique. I don't need another "Champ".

I hit under the just price point with a 6AQ5 Trainwreck type amp.
Guys like those, I play enough to know they sound great.

Then I asked myself, if I give this to my brother (prime example) and it needs a tube 500 miles away can he do it?
A: NO,
44 years old, been playing tube gear for 30 years + and he can not swap a tube (without breaking something). In fact, his vintage Hughes Kettner Tubeman will be here this evening for a new tube AGAIN, he broke a pin on the replacement I gave him 3 days ago :headbash:

So, I stick to my original feelings and decide that current production tubes have the distinct advantage based on marketability of the end product.

Remember, even $1.00 tubes will not stay that way long once news of their is worthiness and a few viable designs are revealed. We have all witnessed that enough times over the past 8 years.

Like I said before, this is a great thread, and you guys that are just finishing up did an outstanding job of proving the original challenge could be met.
And what was really cool was the fact that there were newer idea's applied rather than a bunch of fender champ offshoots.

Continue 🙂
 
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I'm beginning to feel uncomfortable here. Mine is a Champ's copy! A dirt cheap copy that sounds better than the original! (what Fender sells today). That is a small achievement but an achievement nonetheless. 😱


Hey, my first guy instinct was a champ based idea as well.
Lord knows I have built & sold enough of those darn things LOL

Absolutely NOTHING wrong with Champs, they were the basis of many amazing recordings and they work live as well as Ole Ron Wood demonstrated back in the Faces era.

The Faces - Stay With Me - Live '71 London - YouTube
Champ hidden on stage left.

Blackface, Silverface, or ole Tweeds they are everywhere and will always be loved.
 
Ditto. The first electrical device I ever "made" was created by twisting the wires from a guitar cord to the wires where the phono pickup was in an old Mannavox HiFi. It was about 1960 and I was about 9 or 10 years old.

Within a few years I was making guitar amps from a schematic using TV tubes. The schematic was a Fender Champ 5C1. You could get 6SJ7's, 5Y3's and 6V6's from old radios. I have been making them off and on ever since.

I have made enough of them, so this time I decided to do something totally different. All of my experiments for this challenge have been push pull.

I still have a few hundred 6AQ5's and 6AU6's so there will be some experiments along those lines. No Champs though.
 
First page of this thread from BST was to the effect that any tube was on the table provided not severly limited supply from standard outlets, I think some TV tubes are in pretty decent supply. TubeLab is definitely pushing outside of the comfort zone..IMHO that is innovation. Got my vote!
 
HundredBuckAmpsimple.jpg


Shame I got distracted but then again I was not out to prove a point here. Can still be under the $100 using 6V tubes. I never included standoffs or mounting bolts, cabinet, speaker, thought that was the responsibility of the builder. I thought we were doing a build so that that someone who wanted to could pick up the parts on their own. Part of the reason I selected two suppliers as I wanted to keep the shipping down. Nothing special here, basically a Fender Tweed amp.

During the challenge I was partly encouraged by others who took little tidbits of my ideas and incorporated them into their own designs. I guess I lost focus of the challenge part. Hopefully when I get my project up and running with a flick of a few switches I should have the above schematic configured. From my testing earlier I would expect it to sound alright. I'll keep you posted.


http://www.alliedelec.com/
Speco Technologies T-7010 (10W) 6.99 1 6.99
Triad Magnetics F5-12 Sec:12.6VCT; Sec:1A 8.28 1 8.28
Triad Magnetics N-68X 11.66 1 11.66
226CKE450MNV RADIAL, 22UF, 450WVDC, 0.64 3 1.92
226CKR050M RADIAL, 22UF, 50WVDC 0.06 3 0.18

LRA911RS -B/120N Illuminated Rocker, OFF-NONE-ON 1.03 1 1.03
17500 10 B1 Power Cord, Detachable 3.15 1 3.15

1N4007-TP 411-0007 0.021 4 0.084
Carbon Film; Res 1.5 Kilohms; Pwr-Rtg 0.5 W 0.03 2 0.06
Metal Oxide; Res 1 Kilohms; Pwr-Rtg 1 W OL1525E 0.05 2 0.1
Carbon Film; Res 5.6 Kilohms; Pwr-Rtg 0.5 W 0.03 1 0.03
Carbon Film; Res 47 Kilohms; Pwr-Rtg 0.5 W 0.05 2 0.1
Carbon Film; Res 68 Kilohms; OL6835E 0.04 2 0.08
METAL FILM, 100K OHM, 1% 1/2W, 648-1580 0.03 2 0.06
Carbon Film; Res 1 Megohms; 0.03 3 0.09
CW005270R0JE12 270 Ohms; Pwr-Rtg 5 W 0.68 1 0.68

POLYESTER FILM CAP 0.022UF 630V Nichicon QXK2J223KTPTZH 0.19 4 0.76
GMA 1A BUSS FUSE 0.33 1 0.33

http://www.tubesandmore.com/
Socket - 9 Pin, Ceramic with Center Shield 1.15 1 1.15
Socket - 7 Pin, Miniature, Micalex, Bottom Mount 0.95 3 2.85
12AQ5 2.7 2 5.4
12AT6/HBC90 - Diode, Dual - Triode T-12AT6_HBC90 2.65 1 2.65
JJ ECC83-S / 12AX7 9.75 1 9.75
Turret Board - 2mm, Loaded with 60 Turrets, 300mm x 60mm 9.95 1 9.95
Alpha Potentiometers - Audio Taper, 8mm Bushing 1M 1.4 2 2.8
Jack - Phone, 1/4", Tip Shunt 1.85 1 1.85
Knob - Chicken Head, High Quality, Brass Insert 1.25 2 2.5
Receptacle - AC, Mates with S-W123 & S-W124 with Fuse Holder 1.85 1 1.85
Wire - Hook-Up, 22 AWG, 50 ft roll, Black 4.95 1 4.95
Capacitor - Polypropylene, Radial, .047 µF @ 630V 0.5 1 0.5
SBE 715 Drop Capacitors - 600 Volts .0047 µF 0.55 1 0.55
Capacitor - Silver Mica, 500 pF @ 500V 0.6 1 0.6

$ 82.934


Sorry, tried spacing out the cost per part, number of parts, and total cost per part type, but the spaces I put in disappeared.
 
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I think some TV tubes are in pretty decent supply. TubeLab is definitely pushing outside of the comfort zone

I spent about 3 weeks with tube manuals, spreadsheets and a telephone just to choose a few tube line ups. Several cool choices just aren't available in large quantities, or have never been seen outside the US.

The tubes used in the Little Big Head are from the last version of the old AA5 radio before it got a silicon injection. There are thousands of them in stock in the US but they may not be common elsewhere.

The tubes used in the Little Big Head II are from European radios. They are well stocked in Europe and the US, with numbers for both sides of the ocean. The total tube cost for that amp is $12. It would be easy to make it work with 12AX7's and EL84's but the tube cost is now $40. Decisions, decisions, decisions.

I found lots of tasty TV tubes that just weren't well stocked, or are too expensive. I did find a few surprizes that will get tested sooner or later.
 
I found lots of tasty TV tubes that just weren't well stocked, or are too expensive. I did find a few surprizes that will get tested sooner or later
It is the surprises that are interesting! And as you said, it is a huge amount of research in order to justify/qualify if an alternate tube type is viable for a low cost design, especially that you are considering availability here and overseas. very cool, look forward to more posts.