four new Faitalpro 15FH520 drivers are on their way, i am hoping these will cure the punch problem along with new cabinets. I am replacing my midrange drivers also. These are the 3 candidates for the job. They will be crossing over to a Faitalpro HF10AK 1 inch exit horn drive mounted to a Beyma TD239 90 x 40 horn lense. Crossover points will be around 350hz and 3khz at 24db per octave.
I would appreciate opinions on which of these 3 drivers would be the best and why.
Beyma 6mi90, Beyma 6mi100, Beyma 8mi100
The PDF for the 6mi90 is too big so here is the link.
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/6MI90E.pdf
I would appreciate opinions on which of these 3 drivers would be the best and why.
Beyma 6mi90, Beyma 6mi100, Beyma 8mi100
The PDF for the 6mi90 is too big so here is the link.
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/6MI90E.pdf
Please do a full review on the 15FH520 as it looks like a nice driver.
Could you also test how noisy the cooling is at higher excursion?
HF10AK looks interesting as well.
Could you also test how noisy the cooling is at higher excursion?
HF10AK looks interesting as well.
so, asking advice, ignoring it, and then pouring money into more hardware without even taking/displaying any measurements. Sounds like you are addicted to the upgrade and have too much disposable income.
Nobody answered my original question! I finally decided to try drivers that have a similar response as Altec 416-8b's which sounded quit good even though they were not in an optimum cabinet.
I'm certainly no expert, and don't know the circumstance under which you listen, but I'm more inclined to think you have a design problem and not a woofer problem.
Issues like the amount of insulation or internal damping, as well as cabinet volume and port tuning come into play.
And, don't forget room acoustics. You could be standing in the middle of a dead node or bass null when you listen.
Many smaller bookshelf speakers build a peak into the bass response in the general vicinity of 100hz. This give the impression of really good bass from a speakers that has only marginal bass specs. I have some Sony bookshelf (very cheap) that seemed to have great bass, and still do, even though the low end rated bass response was only 80hz.
If you are looking for deep bass punch, that comes from the Subwoofer. But I think most consider the real bass presence and power range to be in the roughly 100hz to 400hz range. On the low end of that, if you have a peak, you are going to seem to have real bass power.
Just a few thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
Issues like the amount of insulation or internal damping, as well as cabinet volume and port tuning come into play.
And, don't forget room acoustics. You could be standing in the middle of a dead node or bass null when you listen.
Many smaller bookshelf speakers build a peak into the bass response in the general vicinity of 100hz. This give the impression of really good bass from a speakers that has only marginal bass specs. I have some Sony bookshelf (very cheap) that seemed to have great bass, and still do, even though the low end rated bass response was only 80hz.
If you are looking for deep bass punch, that comes from the Subwoofer. But I think most consider the real bass presence and power range to be in the roughly 100hz to 400hz range. On the low end of that, if you have a peak, you are going to seem to have real bass power.
Just a few thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
Not knowing any more, I would agree with you too.
Maybe the bass he is accustomed to is actually of the one note boom, boom variety.
Seems he needs to squeeze his woofers into smaller enclosures? Or needs some equalization.
For me, 4 x 18's crossed at 80hz 18db, that would whump you.
Like Neo putting his knee through the dojo floor in Martix 1.
That thump is centered near 60hz (I had a 31 band spectrum analyzer).
I had to really hunt to find low stuff, but madonna synth stuff on "Ray of light", that went low.
Room was 16' x 24'.
But when I ran dual 15's per side from 80-500hz, that pounded you.
Sincerely,
Norman
Like Neo putting his knee through the dojo floor in Martix 1.
That thump is centered near 60hz (I had a 31 band spectrum analyzer).
I had to really hunt to find low stuff, but madonna synth stuff on "Ray of light", that went low.
Room was 16' x 24'.
But when I ran dual 15's per side from 80-500hz, that pounded you.
Sincerely,
Norman
Are there certain thiele small parameters that I should be looking for that would give me this and what frequency should I tune them to.
The latest 15" I have benn looking at is a Faitalpro 15FH520
FaitalPRO - Professional Loudspeakers Made in Italy
[/QUOTE]
This is my original question which no one has answered.
The latest 15" I have benn looking at is a Faitalpro 15FH520
FaitalPRO - Professional Loudspeakers Made in Italy
[/QUOTE]
This is my original question which no one has answered.
punch based on woofer parameters?
Since the qts is .4, the typical max flat ported would be 6.2ft3 each tuned to 40hz (its F3 also). I don't like the sound of my dual 15's tuned to 40hz. 30hz is smoother, deeper, and quicker. It went from thunk thunk to boom boom.
If you are using a subwoofer, you can put those 15s in a smaller sealed box. My 15's had a sealed F3 near 80hz and worked fine (eminence gamma 15a) when run 80hz-500hz. They were relatively inexpensive drivers.
Will a woofer with higher/lower Qts or Fs have more chest pounding bass ?
A proper box will give deeper bass, but not necessarily dance club bass you want (they usually run many 15's crossed 80-100hz to subwoofers).
Where are you crossing the 15's at ?
Since the qts is .4, the typical max flat ported would be 6.2ft3 each tuned to 40hz (its F3 also). I don't like the sound of my dual 15's tuned to 40hz. 30hz is smoother, deeper, and quicker. It went from thunk thunk to boom boom.
If you are using a subwoofer, you can put those 15s in a smaller sealed box. My 15's had a sealed F3 near 80hz and worked fine (eminence gamma 15a) when run 80hz-500hz. They were relatively inexpensive drivers.
Will a woofer with higher/lower Qts or Fs have more chest pounding bass ?
A proper box will give deeper bass, but not necessarily dance club bass you want (they usually run many 15's crossed 80-100hz to subwoofers).
Where are you crossing the 15's at ?
Is the box size and tuning frequency you gave me for the Faitalpro? That's what I get for them too if it is. I seem to get the best bass when I crossover between 60 and 65hz. If I go higher I lose definition. I originally bought the 18 sound 15lw1401's for their their efficiency, powerhandling and design innovations before I had any software to model them. If you model the 18 sound 15lw1401's you see a very peaky response. All of the pro sound people told me to crossover at 80 hz so I thought they would work well but I was wrong.
Thanks for actually answering my question. Any thoughts on the midrange selelection I have listed a couple of posts above this one?
Thanks
Thanks for actually answering my question. Any thoughts on the midrange selelection I have listed a couple of posts above this one?
Thanks
Usually the box is tuned to roughly the fs resonance frequency of the driver. Part of the reason for doing this is to control the impedance peak that occurs at Resonance.
Some say to tune it slightly higher because that give a lower impedance in the working range of the speaker, but a slightly higher impedance below the working range.
Again, the place to start is with the cabinet and port parameters tuned to the Resonance frequency of the bass drive, and might slight modifications from that point to suit your needs.
The resonance frequency of the linked to FaitalPro is 38hz.
Another critical factor is Vas, which is related to the compliance, or springiness of the air inside the cabinet. When the compliance of the air equals the compliance of the speaker, you have something of an ideal cabinet volume. Though to be fair, the Vas on most speakers is impractically high.
For example, the FaitalPro speakers have a Vas of 174.8 dm³ or 6.17 ft³), which is the equivalent of about 175 liters of volume. (1.8 ft x 1.8 ft x 1.8 ft = ~ 6.17 ft ³) Presumably, you double that if you have two bass drivers in one cabinet.
I think it would be better to look at you existing design.
Also, if you don't have the electronic equipment or computer software to do a frequency sweep of your speakers and plot frequency response graphs, you can get a set of test tone that do slow 10hz sweep from 10hz up to 350hz, increasing precisely 1hz every 10 seconds. That would allow you to take SPL (sound level) measurements in your room and see exactly what the bass response is. (RealTraps.com)
It would also allow you to walk around the room and see if there are any drop outs at particular locations.
I still think it is very likely that the drivers you have are capable of doing the job, but you need to get the various parameters of the cabinet and cabinet tuning plus the room acoustics right.
I think a better place to start is to give us the dimensions and details of your existing cabinets, and the Theil-Small parameters of the drivers you are currently using, and likely those here with an intuitive grasp of these things could tell us where you went wrong (or where you went right).
I just don't see trying an endless array of different woofers as a functional or financially practical solution.
But then ... that's just my opinion.
Steve/bluewizard
Some say to tune it slightly higher because that give a lower impedance in the working range of the speaker, but a slightly higher impedance below the working range.
Again, the place to start is with the cabinet and port parameters tuned to the Resonance frequency of the bass drive, and might slight modifications from that point to suit your needs.
The resonance frequency of the linked to FaitalPro is 38hz.
Another critical factor is Vas, which is related to the compliance, or springiness of the air inside the cabinet. When the compliance of the air equals the compliance of the speaker, you have something of an ideal cabinet volume. Though to be fair, the Vas on most speakers is impractically high.
For example, the FaitalPro speakers have a Vas of 174.8 dm³ or 6.17 ft³), which is the equivalent of about 175 liters of volume. (1.8 ft x 1.8 ft x 1.8 ft = ~ 6.17 ft ³) Presumably, you double that if you have two bass drivers in one cabinet.
I think it would be better to look at you existing design.
Also, if you don't have the electronic equipment or computer software to do a frequency sweep of your speakers and plot frequency response graphs, you can get a set of test tone that do slow 10hz sweep from 10hz up to 350hz, increasing precisely 1hz every 10 seconds. That would allow you to take SPL (sound level) measurements in your room and see exactly what the bass response is. (RealTraps.com)
It would also allow you to walk around the room and see if there are any drop outs at particular locations.
I still think it is very likely that the drivers you have are capable of doing the job, but you need to get the various parameters of the cabinet and cabinet tuning plus the room acoustics right.
I think a better place to start is to give us the dimensions and details of your existing cabinets, and the Theil-Small parameters of the drivers you are currently using, and likely those here with an intuitive grasp of these things could tell us where you went wrong (or where you went right).
I just don't see trying an endless array of different woofers as a functional or financially practical solution.
But then ... that's just my opinion.
Steve/bluewizard
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Here are the parameters for the 18 sound 15lw1401 driver. could you see if you can get an acceptable response curve? I have tried combination from tuning to 42hz to 75 hz in cabinet volumes that create as linear as response as possible and they always sound like crap.
The best 15's I have ever heard are Altec 416-8b's, their VAS is 24 cubic ft. These Altec Drivers are used in Valentia and Voice of the Theatre cabinets and by many are considered the best speakers ever made,
The best 15's I have ever heard are Altec 416-8b's, their VAS is 24 cubic ft. These Altec Drivers are used in Valentia and Voice of the Theatre cabinets and by many are considered the best speakers ever made,
kerry,
To my ears, I doubt at spls under 105-110db that I could tell any difference between woofers crossed at 350hz, except for which goes a little deeper. Trying different 15’s is a waste of time and money.
Like the Altecs of the past, a large 2-way sounds totally different than a 3 way. I’ve ran 4 ways even but have now settled into my simple 2 way. I prefer my 2 ways with 15’s (750hz 24db) over 3 way setup (using the same 15’s) crossing at 200hz / 2khz ( 8” and a tractrix horn with 1.75” compression driver), or a 4 way crossed at 80hz /500hz /5khz (4 x 18's subs with dual 15's, mid horn, piezo). Or even large 3-way vegas (250hz, 2.5khz) crossed 100hz 24db to dual 18's.
To me it has to do with phase shifts through the crossover point, especially where we are most sensitive to them (near 2khz). Even a 24db is not aligned until it is 2 octaves on either side of the crossover point. 8" crossed at 5khz 24db sounded good to my ears also, as does 200hz crossover point for subwoofer to a full range driver.
Sounds like you are learning by playing which is exactly what we like to do here.
But getting a different 15" probably won't help.
Norman
To my ears, I doubt at spls under 105-110db that I could tell any difference between woofers crossed at 350hz, except for which goes a little deeper. Trying different 15’s is a waste of time and money.
Like the Altecs of the past, a large 2-way sounds totally different than a 3 way. I’ve ran 4 ways even but have now settled into my simple 2 way. I prefer my 2 ways with 15’s (750hz 24db) over 3 way setup (using the same 15’s) crossing at 200hz / 2khz ( 8” and a tractrix horn with 1.75” compression driver), or a 4 way crossed at 80hz /500hz /5khz (4 x 18's subs with dual 15's, mid horn, piezo). Or even large 3-way vegas (250hz, 2.5khz) crossed 100hz 24db to dual 18's.
To me it has to do with phase shifts through the crossover point, especially where we are most sensitive to them (near 2khz). Even a 24db is not aligned until it is 2 octaves on either side of the crossover point. 8" crossed at 5khz 24db sounded good to my ears also, as does 200hz crossover point for subwoofer to a full range driver.
Sounds like you are learning by playing which is exactly what we like to do here.
But getting a different 15" probably won't help.
Norman
New 15"s
I recieved the new Faitalpro 15FH520's and put 2 per cabinet in two old 9.64 cubic foot cabinets I had sitting around. I tuned them to 44hz which looked the best for this size cabinet. A little bigger cabinet of about 6.2 cubic feet per driver tuned to 40hz may be better but the price was right on these.
My bass punch is cured! I now have bass equal to if not better than any speaker I have ever heard. The drums and bass guitar are crisp and clean with no peaks or dips.
I am now going to move onto the midranges. The present drivers are Madison Knight 8, 8" which I got by with but want to upgrade now. The candidates for the midrange are:
Beyma 6mi90 6.5 inch
Beyma 6mi100 6.5 inch
Beyma 8MI100 8 inch
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/6MI90E.pdf
Any input on which of these would work the best and why would be appreciated. Crossover points around 300hz and 3khz at 24db per octave.
I recieved the new Faitalpro 15FH520's and put 2 per cabinet in two old 9.64 cubic foot cabinets I had sitting around. I tuned them to 44hz which looked the best for this size cabinet. A little bigger cabinet of about 6.2 cubic feet per driver tuned to 40hz may be better but the price was right on these.
My bass punch is cured! I now have bass equal to if not better than any speaker I have ever heard. The drums and bass guitar are crisp and clean with no peaks or dips.
I am now going to move onto the midranges. The present drivers are Madison Knight 8, 8" which I got by with but want to upgrade now. The candidates for the midrange are:
Beyma 6mi90 6.5 inch
Beyma 6mi100 6.5 inch
Beyma 8MI100 8 inch
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/6MI90E.pdf
Any input on which of these would work the best and why would be appreciated. Crossover points around 300hz and 3khz at 24db per octave.
Those 3 mids are ??
I really like your 300-3kHz, but it is indeed difficult to get just one driver to cover this range, "just right". I'm reviving this thread. How is your progress going ?
I really like your 300-3kHz, but it is indeed difficult to get just one driver to cover this range, "just right". I'm reviving this thread. How is your progress going ?
Getting Close
The latest set up is: (per side)
HF Horn = Beyma TD-385 (80h x 50v)
HF Driver = 1 x Radian 745NeoBEPB , 1.4" Beryllium, Neodymium
Mids = 2 x Beyma 8MI100 , 8" in a sealed enclosure
Midbass = 2 x 18 Sound 15MB700 , 15" Drivers, Vb=7.351 cu. ft. Fb=65.91hz (both together in a single enclosure)
Subs = 2 x BMS 18N862 , 18" Drivers, Vb=11.6 cu.ft. Fb=28hz (each driver in a separate enclosure)
Crossover points: 24db/oct
1khz, 270hz, 65hz
power: (per side)
HF = 600 watts
MF = 1200 watts
MB = 2400 watts
Sub = 3800 watts
80% open stainless steel grills.
The system sounds very good and gets extremely loud.
I am going to try Radian 1" Beryllium HF Drivers to see if I can get a little more airy highs, If I can ever get a hold of some PHL Audio 8" Mids which should sound like the Beyma (which are excellent) but are waterproof, since all the rest of the drivers are. I am also going to try using 12" Midbass drivers to see if I can get just a little more crispness in the bass guitars, its between the Beyma 12P80Fe and the 18 Sound 12NLW9300, but this is just getting nitpicky, The 18's rock, they have caused minor building damage (cracked plaster)
The latest set up is: (per side)
HF Horn = Beyma TD-385 (80h x 50v)
HF Driver = 1 x Radian 745NeoBEPB , 1.4" Beryllium, Neodymium
Mids = 2 x Beyma 8MI100 , 8" in a sealed enclosure
Midbass = 2 x 18 Sound 15MB700 , 15" Drivers, Vb=7.351 cu. ft. Fb=65.91hz (both together in a single enclosure)
Subs = 2 x BMS 18N862 , 18" Drivers, Vb=11.6 cu.ft. Fb=28hz (each driver in a separate enclosure)
Crossover points: 24db/oct
1khz, 270hz, 65hz
power: (per side)
HF = 600 watts
MF = 1200 watts
MB = 2400 watts
Sub = 3800 watts
80% open stainless steel grills.
The system sounds very good and gets extremely loud.
I am going to try Radian 1" Beryllium HF Drivers to see if I can get a little more airy highs, If I can ever get a hold of some PHL Audio 8" Mids which should sound like the Beyma (which are excellent) but are waterproof, since all the rest of the drivers are. I am also going to try using 12" Midbass drivers to see if I can get just a little more crispness in the bass guitars, its between the Beyma 12P80Fe and the 18 Sound 12NLW9300, but this is just getting nitpicky, The 18's rock, they have caused minor building damage (cracked plaster)
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The midbass drivers might sound cleaner if they had their own enclosures. I have the 12" version. Nice stuff.
Killer system by the way. I'm sure it sounds fantastic.
Killer system by the way. I'm sure it sounds fantastic.
Have you tried crossing the 18's directly to the mids? Wonder how those BMS drivers do up there.
Put the 15s in smaller boxes tuned a little higher. Run the 18s to around 60hz and only take the 15s to 200 at most and you should have punch. Nearly 5 cubes for a PA 15 is a big sub style cabinet. Try around 3 cubes to bring up midbass output and reduce cone excursion.
Crossover phase on a 24db oct crossover is one thing but group delay and phase shift of speaker cabinets is completely different.
The other thing you have completely ignored is your room. Back in my PA days, some venues just sucked out any punch from a system until the speakers were moved around. Try re arranging things.
Edit - Whoops sorry for some reason I could only see a few posts until I replied and then there was a heap more! Glad its all sounding good now, pro drivers often lose punch in huge boxes, small boxes and the high BL motors make for very puchy bass 🙂
Crossover phase on a 24db oct crossover is one thing but group delay and phase shift of speaker cabinets is completely different.
The other thing you have completely ignored is your room. Back in my PA days, some venues just sucked out any punch from a system until the speakers were moved around. Try re arranging things.
Edit - Whoops sorry for some reason I could only see a few posts until I replied and then there was a heap more! Glad its all sounding good now, pro drivers often lose punch in huge boxes, small boxes and the high BL motors make for very puchy bass 🙂
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OK, I wanna come in from the left-field here again. Have you considered putting your pair of 15" drivers in a Karlson cabinet? Have a look at these threads:
Karlson K-15 what driver?
Best bass horn 50 – 500 Hz
And for pure craziness:
MOAK: The Mother of All Karlsonators (aka The Magnificent Monster)
And here is a website about the Karlson designs:
Karlson Speaker Homepage
The Karlson cabinets excel at fantastic punch, but have a few problems in the lower mids. Maybe you can run the 18" drivers in a Karlson cabinet up to the XO point. FreddyI and xrk971 are the resident experts, so contact them for more info. The Karlson cabinet like really low Q drivers, but they will punch your wind out if fed right.
Karlson K-15 what driver?
Best bass horn 50 – 500 Hz
And for pure craziness:
MOAK: The Mother of All Karlsonators (aka The Magnificent Monster)
And here is a website about the Karlson designs:
Karlson Speaker Homepage
The Karlson cabinets excel at fantastic punch, but have a few problems in the lower mids. Maybe you can run the 18" drivers in a Karlson cabinet up to the XO point. FreddyI and xrk971 are the resident experts, so contact them for more info. The Karlson cabinet like really low Q drivers, but they will punch your wind out if fed right.
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