Member
Joined 2009
You should be able to get a decent punch from 10" woofers if they are designed well. A "muddy bass" can be caused by many different factors and each of those is not trivial to troubleshoot even with a measuring setup. Here are some of the things to check.
- Shaky cabinets. Turn the volume up and put your hand on the speaker cabinet. You should not be able to feel vibrations. Cross-bracing, spike feet and stuffing can make drastic improvements.
- Room position. As someone already indicated reflections from the wall can cancel out signal coming out of the speaker. You can experiment by moving the speaker half, then double the distance to the wall and see what effect it has.
- Ports invert the phase which is one of the causes for cancellations. They need to be carefully designed and positioned as far as possible from the wall. Avoid ported cabinets for your mids because it's hard to predict how they affect the subs.
- Crossover... there's no perfect one. I would spend most energy in ensuring the drivers are flat in the crossover region and possibly time aligned.
Before going out and buying new woofers I will suggest disconnecting the 18" and focusing on getting your system working well with the 15" as a sub.
Good Luck!
- Shaky cabinets. Turn the volume up and put your hand on the speaker cabinet. You should not be able to feel vibrations. Cross-bracing, spike feet and stuffing can make drastic improvements.
- Room position. As someone already indicated reflections from the wall can cancel out signal coming out of the speaker. You can experiment by moving the speaker half, then double the distance to the wall and see what effect it has.
- Ports invert the phase which is one of the causes for cancellations. They need to be carefully designed and positioned as far as possible from the wall. Avoid ported cabinets for your mids because it's hard to predict how they affect the subs.
- Crossover... there's no perfect one. I would spend most energy in ensuring the drivers are flat in the crossover region and possibly time aligned.
Before going out and buying new woofers I will suggest disconnecting the 18" and focusing on getting your system working well with the 15" as a sub.
Good Luck!
experiments
I have disconnected the 18's and ran the 15's down to 30 hz with the same results, even with the speakers outdoors so there are no walls effecting cancellations. I have changed my crossover frequency from 45 to 120 hz with the best results at 60 to 65hz but still not exceptable, have also change the cabinet size and tuning on the 15's fron 40hz to 85hz. the best performance is tuning the 15's to 40 hz and crossing them over at 60 to 65hz.
I substituted the present 15 cabinets with altec cabs with 416-8b drivers and the problem was basically fixed, but the Altecs can only handle low power. This is why I am considering the Faitalpro 15FH520 or the Beyma 15LX60 which both have frequency response curves on Bassbox Pro almost Identical to the Altecs when tuned to 40 hz. I would really like experienced speaker builders to model these and tell me their opinions .
If anyone has modeled the 18 sound 15LW1401 driver they will see the radical response curve they produce. This theile parameters and response curve of the 1401 is very similar to most pro sound high performance 15's.
I have disconnected the 18's and ran the 15's down to 30 hz with the same results, even with the speakers outdoors so there are no walls effecting cancellations. I have changed my crossover frequency from 45 to 120 hz with the best results at 60 to 65hz but still not exceptable, have also change the cabinet size and tuning on the 15's fron 40hz to 85hz. the best performance is tuning the 15's to 40 hz and crossing them over at 60 to 65hz.
I substituted the present 15 cabinets with altec cabs with 416-8b drivers and the problem was basically fixed, but the Altecs can only handle low power. This is why I am considering the Faitalpro 15FH520 or the Beyma 15LX60 which both have frequency response curves on Bassbox Pro almost Identical to the Altecs when tuned to 40 hz. I would really like experienced speaker builders to model these and tell me their opinions .
If anyone has modeled the 18 sound 15LW1401 driver they will see the radical response curve they produce. This theile parameters and response curve of the 1401 is very similar to most pro sound high performance 15's.
Subjective listening tests are meaningless, especially with pro sound, can you post some measurements?
If you are using pro woofers,the type with cloth surround and stiff suspension, you won't get the punch playing recorded music. Those are for "live" use.
Mike
I feel that is true of many pro audio speakers but not all. Many 15's have a VAS of around 100L, My 18 sound 15lw1401's VAS is 131, you can barely push the cone with you hands and it shows in the rapid low frequency rolloff. manufacturers today are all about maximum power handling instead of sound quality. The 15lw1401 is rated at 1000 watts continous pink noise, 7000 watts peak. to be able to handle this they have to have a very stiff suspension. With a stiff suspension the fs becomes higher and to lower the fs they add mass (mms) which results in a speaker with a rapid high frequency rolloff. The 15lw1401 is a perfect example of this and something I didn't know when I bought them. This is why I am going to try the Faitalpro 15fh520 or the Beyma LX60.
Tuned to 40 hz, (according to Bassbox Pro) the 15lw1401 requires 1050 watts to reach xmax at 125.7db at 50hz, it then rises to 130.5db at 220 hz and drops back to 125.7 db at 500 hz. This makes it very difficult to make it sound good.
The Faitalpro 15fh520 requires only 550 watts to reach xmax at 125db at 50hz, it rises to 125.5db at 150hz and drops back to 125db at 380hz and is 124db at 600hz. This should make for good sound quality. The Faitalpro and Beyma both have high vas and low mms values.
Tuned to 40 hz, (according to Bassbox Pro) the 15lw1401 requires 1050 watts to reach xmax at 125.7db at 50hz, it then rises to 130.5db at 220 hz and drops back to 125.7 db at 500 hz. This makes it very difficult to make it sound good.
The Faitalpro 15fh520 requires only 550 watts to reach xmax at 125db at 50hz, it rises to 125.5db at 150hz and drops back to 125db at 380hz and is 124db at 600hz. This should make for good sound quality. The Faitalpro and Beyma both have high vas and low mms values.
Check out the pro woofers that are used in cinemas. They are more suitable for recorded music.
Mike
Mike
The eighteensounds should do the job.. but i know that these two woofers are really great and packs a hardpunching rock-solid bass.
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/15G450-NE.pdf
RCF - L15S801
They are of course older designs and doesn´t quite have the xmax of the lx60 (which btw looks nice) but they´re really good.
Maybe you should get a dbx Driverack?
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/15G450-NE.pdf
RCF - L15S801
They are of course older designs and doesn´t quite have the xmax of the lx60 (which btw looks nice) but they´re really good.
Maybe you should get a dbx Driverack?
What enclosure volume and what frequency would you tune these to? Please be detailed about the emclosure and port. I used bassbox Pro and tuned them to 40 hz both with a 6.25 cu. ft box The 15G40N Had a 3db rise from 45 to 200 hz and reaches xmax at 400 watts, 122db.
The L15S801 had a 4.5db rise from 42-240hz and reaches xmax at 350 watts, 121db.
I plan to get a Carvin X Drive XD88 someday, but I want to get the system as close to perfect as possible without it first.
I would really appreciate your input on tuning.
Thanks
The L15S801 had a 4.5db rise from 42-240hz and reaches xmax at 350 watts, 121db.
I plan to get a Carvin X Drive XD88 someday, but I want to get the system as close to perfect as possible without it first.
I would really appreciate your input on tuning.
Thanks
Attachments
I have used the EQ but can't bring in the right sound, I don't use and never will use compression, it makes the system sound bad and blows speakers.
It may sound strange...
...But all cabinets seem to be small 🙄 😕
I would try a bigger aperiodic cabinet for both the 15's A very well damped 6x12 inches vent on the front baffle could do it.
And with available signal level crossover and an equalizer, you could try a 500 liter aperiodic for both the 18 inch subs.
... Now as I think you could do an aperiodic cabinet for the upper mids too.... why not remove the whole rear wall of the cabinet and replace it with very thick and dense stuffing - a very open aperiodic.
Think that bass reflex is a delusion generally and a even greater delusion in that scale particularly... My 12 inch Cerwin Vega has nearly 100L cabinet and 2x100mm (2x4 in) ports... - rather well vented bass reflex... but it's a miserable 12 inch bass... and it has 160 cm2 of port area... From the photos I see taht your 18's barely have that and your 15's have even less port area... how are they supposed to kick in a set up like that?
And with a steep crossover at 300+ hz, you can use your mids on OB or sealed or in aperiodic.
Aperiodic is a vented sealed enclosure that pretends to be bigger, goes little deeper ans has much flatter impedance. That's achieved by installing a resistive vent (a vent full of stuffing that is an acoustic barrier, but is not air tight) - google for it.
EDIT: Is this for home use? Congratulations for that! My understanding for good home system is similar! Wish you success!
...But all cabinets seem to be small 🙄 😕
I would try a bigger aperiodic cabinet for both the 15's A very well damped 6x12 inches vent on the front baffle could do it.
And with available signal level crossover and an equalizer, you could try a 500 liter aperiodic for both the 18 inch subs.
... Now as I think you could do an aperiodic cabinet for the upper mids too.... why not remove the whole rear wall of the cabinet and replace it with very thick and dense stuffing - a very open aperiodic.
Think that bass reflex is a delusion generally and a even greater delusion in that scale particularly... My 12 inch Cerwin Vega has nearly 100L cabinet and 2x100mm (2x4 in) ports... - rather well vented bass reflex... but it's a miserable 12 inch bass... and it has 160 cm2 of port area... From the photos I see taht your 18's barely have that and your 15's have even less port area... how are they supposed to kick in a set up like that?
And with a steep crossover at 300+ hz, you can use your mids on OB or sealed or in aperiodic.
Aperiodic is a vented sealed enclosure that pretends to be bigger, goes little deeper ans has much flatter impedance. That's achieved by installing a resistive vent (a vent full of stuffing that is an acoustic barrier, but is not air tight) - google for it.
EDIT: Is this for home use? Congratulations for that! My understanding for good home system is similar! Wish you success!
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Cabinet size is a concern, even a 7 cu.ft. cabinet is really pushing it for the 15's and 500 liter cabinet for the 18's is out of the question, these are mobile cabinets. I am also concerned with the aperiodic cabinet designs vent damping getting plugged up like a filter since these speakers are used outdoors, around really dirty areas etc...
I do think the design is very interesting but proabably not too practical for my application.
I would really like to see some imput on bass reflex design cabinet tuning and VB for the 2 drivers I am considering using. The Beyma LX60 and the Faitalpro 15FH520 and also would like to know if anyone has reason that these would not be a good choice.
My 18's are fine the way they are, they roll out floor shaking bass. The area my system is in is a 29' x 59' foot room with a 10.5' ceiling. When I crank it up everything in the house moves on this floor and the floor above it, even the toilet turns into a porcelain massage unit. You can feel a breeze at over 20' from them at 118db.
The 15's are my only concern in this forum. I think the Beyma and the Faitalpro may cure my problems unless someone can express a reason why they won't.
I do think the design is very interesting but proabably not too practical for my application.
I would really like to see some imput on bass reflex design cabinet tuning and VB for the 2 drivers I am considering using. The Beyma LX60 and the Faitalpro 15FH520 and also would like to know if anyone has reason that these would not be a good choice.
My 18's are fine the way they are, they roll out floor shaking bass. The area my system is in is a 29' x 59' foot room with a 10.5' ceiling. When I crank it up everything in the house moves on this floor and the floor above it, even the toilet turns into a porcelain massage unit. You can feel a breeze at over 20' from them at 118db.
The 15's are my only concern in this forum. I think the Beyma and the Faitalpro may cure my problems unless someone can express a reason why they won't.
Member
Joined 2009
wow OK, I'm not an expert but I think your problem is that you have too many woofers. When woofers are not playing in sync they cancel each other out. The audiable result is muddy sound. Crossing over 1 driver to the next is difficult and you simply have too many. Maybe someone with experience and measuring equipment can put it all together but it will be difficult and will work only in a small sweet spot. The computer speakers work well because there's only 1 woofer (no cancellations).
Here's my advice - I think the double 8" should be enough to give a good punch (at normal listening volume at least). Disconnect everything else and listen to music with the 8" box alone, full range with no crossovers. Can you hear the punch? If not listen to the 12" alone. The music will sound like garbage but you should be able to hear the punch you are looking for if you listen critically. Play your computer speakers to compare. The problem might be in your speakers but I will bet it's the crossover. You might find you don't need more bass than the double 8" (the computer speaker sounds great with just a single 6")
The optimal setup for you is probably having the 8"s as a mid and a single 12" as a sub. In that case you may never get the crossover right with ports on the 8". You can try sealing the ports on the 8" with socks or rags but since the box is designed for ported operation this might not be good. Then you can try out different crossovers again. If this eventually works out after much tweaking you might discover that the horn to a double 8" is a bigger crossover nightmare than the low end.
Good Luck!
Here's my advice - I think the double 8" should be enough to give a good punch (at normal listening volume at least). Disconnect everything else and listen to music with the 8" box alone, full range with no crossovers. Can you hear the punch? If not listen to the 12" alone. The music will sound like garbage but you should be able to hear the punch you are looking for if you listen critically. Play your computer speakers to compare. The problem might be in your speakers but I will bet it's the crossover. You might find you don't need more bass than the double 8" (the computer speaker sounds great with just a single 6")
The optimal setup for you is probably having the 8"s as a mid and a single 12" as a sub. In that case you may never get the crossover right with ports on the 8". You can try sealing the ports on the 8" with socks or rags but since the box is designed for ported operation this might not be good. Then you can try out different crossovers again. If this eventually works out after much tweaking you might discover that the horn to a double 8" is a bigger crossover nightmare than the low end.
Good Luck!
My bass is improving as I've been treating my horn for reflections (sharper leading edge, better highs on the bass transients).
If you think speed and snap comes from the woofers, turn off your mids/highs, mud city.
Norman
If you think speed and snap comes from the woofers, turn off your mids/highs, mud city.
Norman
I think he is looking for the in your chest punch from the 15's, from a kick drum etc, not so much the snap from when it is hitting the drum?
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