Gday I had in mind making a bib. I never thought about making a horn bass to seriously until I saw a bib last night. It seems like something I could build . I know this is not the first time this has been tried. But the thread was too old to ask about it so I thought I would start another one. Not specifically regarding the bib. I just something simple. A bib has the advantage of being used as a bib allso which would be fun too.Can I make tight clean bass from 150 to 50 or lower? I probably will end up going full digital crossover with delay in the form of this product. I will build a preamp using the balananced dsp using digital inputs from my paytv, pc and blueray trans coupling the analouge outputs to davens. Only 2 way to start and using passive crossovers in the speakers and amps or some combination anyway.Thanks in advance.
MiniDSP
MiniDSP
Hi,
you're thinking to make a BIB with subwoofer drivers, or use a BIB with fullrange drivers to have an easy build that doesn't need a subwoofer? (Either ought to work.)
you're thinking to make a BIB with subwoofer drivers, or use a BIB with fullrange drivers to have an easy build that doesn't need a subwoofer? (Either ought to work.)
Iam thinking trying them with fullrange if it possible to build it to suit both or just a woofers other wise. The last tqwt I made had a huge peak and also a place where the drivers completely unloaded. I did have in mind quiet a small driver for woofer dutys . somthing that was fast and nimble for low volume work. Somthing from my collection hopefully. richard allan cg10 perhaps? 99 db efficient. Then maybe try a cg10 t fullrange.I dont have a lot of really nimble 8's only klangfilm type 8.5's that are made for open baffle. Some corals too. Would be it be better since it will be used for bass duty to build a little compression chamber on the front and make it a proper horn? I have contacted a guy at my local woodworking club that said he can help me which is encouraging. With a compression chamber it would be a very good horn being nice and long and strait would it not? rommy the cat says anything that isnt a true horn will sound like shouting down a sewer pipe.
I think I put this in the wrong section. I think adding a compression driver is incorrect to as a tqwt has a compression chamber already :-|
bib horns
High Efficiency Speaker Asylum - RE: Altec288 wood hyperbolic plans anyone have any? Some MJ plans here too. - tubebuilder - January 14, 2011 at 12:53:20 Here is a pick of my bedroom system in another thread. You can see how the top firing would be a great advantage for me. The ceiling area is the most uncluttered space. I have found a thread on the 12inch bib but it is far to big for me. I would want a narrow ten inch bib. Any bigger I fear it would get too resonant. What you can see in the pick is a crude pair of open back cabs with some rare grundig radio drivers. This is where my mid bass and mid horns would go. The bibs would slot in on the outside. I could use the reflex underneath for low bass but I doubt if it would be necessary in such a small room.I could use a 8 inch bib but it seems kind on silly though since I will be using a 12 inch for mid bass with all over 100db efficiency's. The only other horn option is Dr Bruce Edgar's show horn or monolith. Both are huge projects.
High Efficiency Speaker Asylum - RE: Altec288 wood hyperbolic plans anyone have any? Some MJ plans here too. - tubebuilder - January 14, 2011 at 12:53:20 Here is a pick of my bedroom system in another thread. You can see how the top firing would be a great advantage for me. The ceiling area is the most uncluttered space. I have found a thread on the 12inch bib but it is far to big for me. I would want a narrow ten inch bib. Any bigger I fear it would get too resonant. What you can see in the pick is a crude pair of open back cabs with some rare grundig radio drivers. This is where my mid bass and mid horns would go. The bibs would slot in on the outside. I could use the reflex underneath for low bass but I doubt if it would be necessary in such a small room.I could use a 8 inch bib but it seems kind on silly though since I will be using a 12 inch for mid bass with all over 100db efficiency's. The only other horn option is Dr Bruce Edgar's show horn or monolith. Both are huge projects.
Google is your friend. Found one of my old posts right at the top: Fullrangedriver Forum / Enclosure for Richard Allan drivers
He's right if you don't damp it some.
GM
Gday GM I do google a lot but perhaps Iam not good at it. I have just came up with a horn that would suit me. So I guess I will keep reading to see if I can learn enough to make it. I have been reading more about BIBs Iam sure I will work it eventually.
Greets!
Maybe/maybe not, but I'd forgotten that me, Cal (mod) and a few others did a Google comparison awhile back using identical searches and the discrepancy between us was considerable. Apparently, its 'A.I.' creates searches based on what we search and/or links we click on, so having already posted on this driver it seems reasonable it would pop up on the first page.
Regardless, on stuff you don't normally do searches on, you may need to wade through many pages of links to find it. I tend to copy/paste or write a fairly complete description if there's enough info since Google seems to not get bogged down by it like most search engines, i.e. 'less is more' when defining a search.
FWIW, with yours, I searched 'richard allan cg10 bib'
Anyway, what do you need to know to build a horn? I mean, if you have a design.............
GM
Maybe/maybe not, but I'd forgotten that me, Cal (mod) and a few others did a Google comparison awhile back using identical searches and the discrepancy between us was considerable. Apparently, its 'A.I.' creates searches based on what we search and/or links we click on, so having already posted on this driver it seems reasonable it would pop up on the first page.
Regardless, on stuff you don't normally do searches on, you may need to wade through many pages of links to find it. I tend to copy/paste or write a fairly complete description if there's enough info since Google seems to not get bogged down by it like most search engines, i.e. 'less is more' when defining a search.
FWIW, with yours, I searched 'richard allan cg10 bib'
Anyway, what do you need to know to build a horn? I mean, if you have a design.............
GM
Is space a concern? If not, look up BBBIB, it is running a 12"LTA driver if I remember correctly. They should have plenty of output for you.
confusion
OmG the more I read the more confused I get. Front horns designs are getting to big and are meant to floor load. Which doesn't suit my room. I have been reading horn response tutorials. I fear even if I did work this out I would not get a successful designed first time. I read peoples websites and most often they build series of horns before they get it right . I have been reading about tapped horns. I understand they are increasingly popular for there flatter response and lack of corner loaded needed thought it still benefits. I cant help thinking the bib has a lot in common with a tapped horn. I am thinking if a mid horn can be folded even if once 90 degrees. I am all so reconsidering going back ot a tpi style wave guide for mid duty's.
GM I did read about Sim for the Richard Allan. It was just to deep for my room by about 4 inches. And a little tall too I think. Iam sure there is better tapped horn plans out there more suitable for my needs. I just have to find the right one. I should reread the BBBib At least its a proven design. What put me off about this one in the fist place is that its so big and wide it would have to resonate. When I asked about a Richard Alan bib I had these fantasies that it could be much narrower thus reducing the risk of resonating. I think this is where folded designs are better. I suspect Volvo worked this out because her uses a smaller folded tapped horn for his upper sub bass and his bigger one just for low low bass. This is getting so complicated. I had cabinetmaker waiting for a plan. I realize now it could take 6 months to get this worked out. Perhaps I will assemble the mid treble into a reflex then work down. Oh and Iam still tempted to just build some small chambers on the back of my Auzuru 150 Lcleach tratrix horns and see what happens. Trying ten and 12 inch drivers. Because they fit in my room and are the same shape as my upper mid horns almost!
Most importantly .I do realize I have been asking to many questions and not read enough. So Iam going to stop for a while and give peoples a break.
OmG the more I read the more confused I get. Front horns designs are getting to big and are meant to floor load. Which doesn't suit my room. I have been reading horn response tutorials. I fear even if I did work this out I would not get a successful designed first time. I read peoples websites and most often they build series of horns before they get it right . I have been reading about tapped horns. I understand they are increasingly popular for there flatter response and lack of corner loaded needed thought it still benefits. I cant help thinking the bib has a lot in common with a tapped horn. I am thinking if a mid horn can be folded even if once 90 degrees. I am all so reconsidering going back ot a tpi style wave guide for mid duty's.
GM I did read about Sim for the Richard Allan. It was just to deep for my room by about 4 inches. And a little tall too I think. Iam sure there is better tapped horn plans out there more suitable for my needs. I just have to find the right one. I should reread the BBBib At least its a proven design. What put me off about this one in the fist place is that its so big and wide it would have to resonate. When I asked about a Richard Alan bib I had these fantasies that it could be much narrower thus reducing the risk of resonating. I think this is where folded designs are better. I suspect Volvo worked this out because her uses a smaller folded tapped horn for his upper sub bass and his bigger one just for low low bass. This is getting so complicated. I had cabinetmaker waiting for a plan. I realize now it could take 6 months to get this worked out. Perhaps I will assemble the mid treble into a reflex then work down. Oh and Iam still tempted to just build some small chambers on the back of my Auzuru 150 Lcleach tratrix horns and see what happens. Trying ten and 12 inch drivers. Because they fit in my room and are the same shape as my upper mid horns almost!
Most importantly .I do realize I have been asking to many questions and not read enough. So Iam going to stop for a while and give peoples a break.
Yeah, with no computers, much less computer software or measurement capability, you wouldn't believe how many pipes, horns I cobbled together from proven designs I reverse engineered before I figured them out good enough for my uses since I lacked the higher math skills to learn it from electrical, mechanical, acoustical theory textbooks of the day.
Right, a simple TH is basically a BIB folded back on itself while a true TH uses the tap to fill in a BIB's huge 3rd harmonic dip along with pipe horn loading all the way down to the driver's Fs.
Well, smoothed out, i.e. trading pipe horn gain for wide BW 'flatness', the BIB can be used over a much wider BW than the TH, so no 'free lunch', ergo a better choice overall when there's a want/need to keep driver/XO count to a minimum.
"tpi style waveguide" ?? Please elaborate.
The CG10 BIB can be shrunk depth wise, with the trade-off being a higher F3 that may not matter if the room has much gain, but not a good plan to shorten it unless you have a low ceiling.
BIB with a 2.9+" narrower width and 4+" shorter depth:
L = ~138"
zdriver = ~30"
Sm = 445.35"^2 (recommend ~17.75" W x 25.1" D)
a-b-c = ~12.55"
Not a great deal of difference performance wise even down around 30 Hz. IOW the extra net Vb I have factored into the BIB calculator is just to maximize tuning flexibility:
GM
Right, a simple TH is basically a BIB folded back on itself while a true TH uses the tap to fill in a BIB's huge 3rd harmonic dip along with pipe horn loading all the way down to the driver's Fs.
Well, smoothed out, i.e. trading pipe horn gain for wide BW 'flatness', the BIB can be used over a much wider BW than the TH, so no 'free lunch', ergo a better choice overall when there's a want/need to keep driver/XO count to a minimum.
"tpi style waveguide" ?? Please elaborate.
The CG10 BIB can be shrunk depth wise, with the trade-off being a higher F3 that may not matter if the room has much gain, but not a good plan to shorten it unless you have a low ceiling.
BIB with a 2.9+" narrower width and 4+" shorter depth:
L = ~138"
zdriver = ~30"
Sm = 445.35"^2 (recommend ~17.75" W x 25.1" D)
a-b-c = ~12.55"
Not a great deal of difference performance wise even down around 30 Hz. IOW the extra net Vb I have factored into the BIB calculator is just to maximize tuning flexibility:
GM
Attachments
If you are going to build a sub that is not tiny, 50Hz is far too modest a goal. Assuming you follow guidelines from the good folks at DIY audio, the "tight and clean" part will depend far more on the room than on the nuances of the sub.
I recently installed a system in a room that is 18 feet square. That is the wavelength of 63Hz. The small satellites, which are theoretically down 4dB at 63Hz absolutely boom at that frequency. Un-equalized deeper bass is very uneven. Taming that room has proved to be a challenge. In a less-than-ideal room, there is much to be said for multiple small subs, but that approach does not kill off room modes.
Last edited:
Right, 'BIB' is just a moniker to describe a 'zero' throat (terminates in a point) parabolic expansion back loaded pipe horn tuned an octave below Fs.
Right again.
To my way of thinking, a simple TH is one where the driver offset is the same at both ends or at least the tap isn't positioned to fill in a pipe's intrinsic 3rd harmonic dip. IOW, with a simple TH one has to make the pipe much larger in net Vb to fill it in than when the tap is used, making it pretty much a waste of time to tap it plus it reduces the pipe horn's usable HF BW due to excessive comb filtering.
To do a truly simple TH design then, using the BIB calculator is all you need or it at least gets you a good starting point to optimize in Hornresp.
Correctomundo! 🙂
GM
Right again.
To my way of thinking, a simple TH is one where the driver offset is the same at both ends or at least the tap isn't positioned to fill in a pipe's intrinsic 3rd harmonic dip. IOW, with a simple TH one has to make the pipe much larger in net Vb to fill it in than when the tap is used, making it pretty much a waste of time to tap it plus it reduces the pipe horn's usable HF BW due to excessive comb filtering.
To do a truly simple TH design then, using the BIB calculator is all you need or it at least gets you a good starting point to optimize in Hornresp.
Correctomundo! 🙂
GM
Gm Lowthers TP1 has a front guide and a rear Horn. I built just the front guide and it was good. About 150hz Cut Off.
http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.com/drawings/tp1isis.pdf
I am going to build some sort of horn in that style to couple with my JBL 2397 on top. I will use vanes like the jbl too in the hope to emulate the sound down to 150HZ. If any cone driver can go with a compression driver it has to be the jbl2397 from what I have read that it is a smooth horn. I hope I am right. They cost 500$. Which seemed cheap to me. I think they have no proper mouth. I will have to make one to make them perform properly. I think thats why there on ebay. I am hoping thats the only reason. Lets face it nothing good that works well goes on ebay.
JBL 2397 Clone Wooden Horn Custom Made QualityBeautiful (eBay item 370474864751 end time 18-Jan-11 09:09:04 AEDST) : Electronics
That way I will get a nice warm tone that will match with a reflex enclosure for bedroom plan B or my lounge. Wide dispersion for shared listening.
PLAN A I have been getting more sure that a compromise on the mid base horn is in order.
Volvo's Trattrix is looking like the go. Even though it only hit 150hz at best with floor loading. I want to set it up higher 12 to 18 inches off the floor. It has the horn same profile as my Jabo upper mid horn . It goes higher then the longer 70hz I wanted and it fits nicely into my bedroom system. It's not that large. I all so believe since my room is so small. Even if it starts to roll off at 100. This is where my room will roll up into a big lump anyway. Iam prepared to go full digital active.
I will build a battery powered preamp based on this module or two of them. So much out put into trans I wouldn't need a preamp any more. And since I am pretty hopeless and building quiet tube preamp. It wouldn't be a bad thing.
MiniDSP - miniDSP Balanced Kit
FINALLY The sub still not sure about that. Volvo's Tapped horn look good. From what I can work out . tapped horns use longer throw woofers.So perhaps there not as good for a se amp as true horns. I don't mind using a small chip amp for bass though. It will save energy and be a good thing.
http://www.volvotreter.de/downloads/TangBand_W6-1139SC_Horn_Rev_1.pdf
I will keep reading about mid basses and tapped horns and see if I can find anything more suitable. But I think that will work.
http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.com/drawings/tp1isis.pdf
I am going to build some sort of horn in that style to couple with my JBL 2397 on top. I will use vanes like the jbl too in the hope to emulate the sound down to 150HZ. If any cone driver can go with a compression driver it has to be the jbl2397 from what I have read that it is a smooth horn. I hope I am right. They cost 500$. Which seemed cheap to me. I think they have no proper mouth. I will have to make one to make them perform properly. I think thats why there on ebay. I am hoping thats the only reason. Lets face it nothing good that works well goes on ebay.
JBL 2397 Clone Wooden Horn Custom Made QualityBeautiful (eBay item 370474864751 end time 18-Jan-11 09:09:04 AEDST) : Electronics
That way I will get a nice warm tone that will match with a reflex enclosure for bedroom plan B or my lounge. Wide dispersion for shared listening.
PLAN A I have been getting more sure that a compromise on the mid base horn is in order.
Volvo's Trattrix is looking like the go. Even though it only hit 150hz at best with floor loading. I want to set it up higher 12 to 18 inches off the floor. It has the horn same profile as my Jabo upper mid horn . It goes higher then the longer 70hz I wanted and it fits nicely into my bedroom system. It's not that large. I all so believe since my room is so small. Even if it starts to roll off at 100. This is where my room will roll up into a big lump anyway. Iam prepared to go full digital active.
I will build a battery powered preamp based on this module or two of them. So much out put into trans I wouldn't need a preamp any more. And since I am pretty hopeless and building quiet tube preamp. It wouldn't be a bad thing.
MiniDSP - miniDSP Balanced Kit
FINALLY The sub still not sure about that. Volvo's Tapped horn look good. From what I can work out . tapped horns use longer throw woofers.So perhaps there not as good for a se amp as true horns. I don't mind using a small chip amp for bass though. It will save energy and be a good thing.
http://www.volvotreter.de/downloads/TangBand_W6-1139SC_Horn_Rev_1.pdf
I will keep reading about mid basses and tapped horns and see if I can find anything more suitable. But I think that will work.
OK, a front loaded horn (FLH).
Sounds like you want to build a Smith horn.
Since a high output impedance SE amp will raise a driver's Qts considerably, a small TH redesigned with this 'weaker' motor will be considerably larger same as with any alignment, so you do get the acoustical gain, but a high Xmax helps protect it if there's no high pass ('rumble') filter.
For a bedroom, a sub-woofer bed platform seems the obvious choice, so space should be no problem plus you won't need as much delay to the mains. 'Fly' your horns from the ceiling and you should still be close enough for a 100 Hz XO if 4th order with no loss of floorspace unless one or more of you is quite tall.
GM
Sounds like you want to build a Smith horn.
Since a high output impedance SE amp will raise a driver's Qts considerably, a small TH redesigned with this 'weaker' motor will be considerably larger same as with any alignment, so you do get the acoustical gain, but a high Xmax helps protect it if there's no high pass ('rumble') filter.
For a bedroom, a sub-woofer bed platform seems the obvious choice, so space should be no problem plus you won't need as much delay to the mains. 'Fly' your horns from the ceiling and you should still be close enough for a 100 Hz XO if 4th order with no loss of floorspace unless one or more of you is quite tall.
GM
Attachments
I really like the mid-bass i'm getting ~50 to ~200 with a FLH, using a pair of 15" 18sounds. Truncated down to only ~4' long (plus back chamber, ~9", x 2' x 3' mouth.
150 LeCleac'h horns load well from ~200 - 1k.
work well using a pair of 10" Tannoy reds w/ the above (and Tapped Horns for the bottom octave or so)...
I like it anyway...
At least until I get the eleven horns & compression drivers set up...
Hey Serenechaos Thank you kindly for dropping in. The LeCleaches range of loading was something I really needed to know about. I am envious of your tannoy reds. I would love a pair of tens. I am sure they where the best ever made. I don't quiet get where they fit into your system though. Either in the LeCleach with a compression chamber or above them? Keep you tens . Your kids will probably buy a house with them one day.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.