Many of them, Class-D or equipped with switching power supplies.
Many of their products are (again) also Class-D.
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If you judge wthem WITH your ears, them a correctly designed one is better in every way as well - many top quality HiFi systems now use switching supplies.
Certainly for PA use, and particularly for guitar/bass use, there's no problems whatsoever using switching supplies - they are generally quieter than conventional ones.
I can see the reasons for not using them in a recording mixer - where you are commonly working with MUCH smaller signal levels than anywhere else - but conventional PSU's in mixers bear no resemblance to conventional PSU's in amplifiers anyway.
I guess I am not familiar with correctly designed switching power supplies then. The ones I am familiar with are very noisy. Why would a switching supply be any different in a recording mixer then in a live sound mixer? Let me be more clear. I don't mean switching supplies used in the equipment only but also switching supplies used in other equipment near the audio equipment also. It is a big problem that is recognized by nearly all musicians. All musicians that I am aware of but I say nearly all just in case.
On the bass amps when you say many of them which ones are you talking about? Most amp brands have different grades of quality available. Also why does the use of class D audio amps seem to be limited to some bass amps and some PA amps? There must be some reason and somebody besides me who doesn't like them. I actually can't say for sure whether or not I like class D bass amps because I still am not sure which ones are class D except for Walter Wood amps taking your word for it. Not to mention I am not a bass player. I record bass tracks sometimes and when I do I record on one track with an AKG 414 mic on one of my Marshall guitar amps through one of my Marshall cabinets, the one that has the 75 watt celestions (for recording guitar I always use a straight faced cabinet with 25 watt celestions that don't have green backs) and direct on another track. To me neither a mic as described or direct sounds as good as both together.
I do not like class D PA amps although I must admit that it is remotely possible that the reason I do not like them is because they happen to have MOSFETTs in them. I don't like any amps with MOSFETTs. If all of the class d amps I have heard also happened to have MOSFETTs then it could be the MOSFETTs that ruin the sound for me. Surely all class d amps do not use MOSFETTs though. Do they?
On the bass amps when you say many of them which ones are you talking about? Most amp brands have different grades of quality available. Also why does the use of class D audio amps seem to be limited to some bass amps and some PA amps? There must be some reason and somebody besides me who doesn't like them. I actually can't say for sure whether or not I like class D bass amps because I still am not sure which ones are class D except for Walter Wood amps taking your word for it. Not to mention I am not a bass player. I record bass tracks sometimes and when I do I record on one track with an AKG 414 mic on one of my Marshall guitar amps through one of my Marshall cabinets, the one that has the 75 watt celestions (for recording guitar I always use a straight faced cabinet with 25 watt celestions that don't have green backs) and direct on another track. To me neither a mic as described or direct sounds as good as both together.
I do not like class D PA amps although I must admit that it is remotely possible that the reason I do not like them is because they happen to have MOSFETTs in them. I don't like any amps with MOSFETTs. If all of the class d amps I have heard also happened to have MOSFETTs then it could be the MOSFETTs that ruin the sound for me. Surely all class d amps do not use MOSFETTs though. Do they?
I bet James James Audio can tell me what the technical reasons are that I don't like class D amps. I guess I should say class D PA amps. I will be picking up an amp very soon from him (any day now) and I will do that. He is way overqualified to be working on my amps but I won't list his qualifications because they are on his website. He told me why I don't like MOSFETTs but I don't remember what he said. I will ask him again and let you know what he says.
One thing I should concede is that I shouldn't have said class D bass amps don't sound good because I actually do not know for sure what they sound like. I am not sure if I have heard one or not because I am not sure which models are class D. I do not like class D PA amps and assumed the same principles apply which they likely do but maybe they don't.
Bass heads are most commonly run clean and for that reason they're sized Big so overdrive/clipping is out of the picture even at high output levels, and therefore the speakers are going to dominate the sound by far. Swapping amp classes with the same power and attention to detail is likely to hand you over 100dB below average changes while changing speakers could give a difference of 10dB.
The 15's are most efficient, around 100dB at 1W, which you'd like for your battery powered amp, but they require bigger cabinets not so compatible with "portable". To a large extent the speaker choice depends on what the player considers to be "tone".
I'd fully explore the neodymium magnet offerings to cut weight. One trick I've always wanted to pull was design an open baffle bass guitar speaker (Q~.7, higher or lower to taste) and figure out a may to seal it into a doorway (closet?) at a practice session. Maybe some locking fold-up panels to cover the rest of the doorway could get big sound without having to carry a big cabinet, but it probably wouldn't work out so well on stage. You can use a big cheapo speaker with a little ceramic magnet to do this, or a regular high power pro speaker and some current feedback or T-bass.
The 15's are most efficient, around 100dB at 1W, which you'd like for your battery powered amp, but they require bigger cabinets not so compatible with "portable". To a large extent the speaker choice depends on what the player considers to be "tone".
I'd fully explore the neodymium magnet offerings to cut weight. One trick I've always wanted to pull was design an open baffle bass guitar speaker (Q~.7, higher or lower to taste) and figure out a may to seal it into a doorway (closet?) at a practice session. Maybe some locking fold-up panels to cover the rest of the doorway could get big sound without having to carry a big cabinet, but it probably wouldn't work out so well on stage. You can use a big cheapo speaker with a little ceramic magnet to do this, or a regular high power pro speaker and some current feedback or T-bass.
I asked James why I don't like class d amps. He said because they are MOSFET amps. I asked the bass player that is currently with me what model his ampegs are and he said Heritage so I looked it up and they are class AB. I like the sound. I asked him what he thought of class D bass amps but he didn't think I was serious. He laughed. So then I did a little reading and found that almost nobody claims that sound quality is one of the advantages of class d amps. Not even people trying to sell them.
They commonly list their advantages as :
Reduction in size and weight
Greater efficiency
Price
Reduced power waste and smaller heatsinks
But nothing about sound quality. Not even "sounds as good as class ab" and certainly not "sounds better than class AB".
So while I shouldn't have said it before I now know that that I don't think class D bass amps sound good. I have heard one that I now know was class H and it MIGHT have been a little better sounding but not much IMO.
They commonly list their advantages as :
Reduction in size and weight
Greater efficiency
Price
Reduced power waste and smaller heatsinks
But nothing about sound quality. Not even "sounds as good as class ab" and certainly not "sounds better than class AB".
So while I shouldn't have said it before I now know that that I don't think class D bass amps sound good. I have heard one that I now know was class H and it MIGHT have been a little better sounding but not much IMO.
You can"t take other poeple biases and/or lack of knowlege as Fact ...... Yes a few years ago poeple Balked at Class D and some of it is based in Fact but Class D has come a long way if the last few years and allmost every major Amp maker has Class D Amps ....
The bass Player in my band uses a 800w Class D Galen Kruger that kicks some serious *** (though it does use a Linear PSU and not a switcher) ......
The bass Player in my band uses a 800w Class D Galen Kruger that kicks some serious *** (though it does use a Linear PSU and not a switcher) ......
Why would anyone advertise an amplifier in that way? - you just wouldn't (and it would probably contravene advertisng rules as well).
They publish the specifications, that's all you need - just read them, power output, distortion, frequency response.
If anything they may sound too good, and that might be your problem?, perhaps you're looking for poorer quality?.
My opinion as well. Same accounts for his buddy playing an Ampeg bass amp. They both don't strive for neutral but some distinct sound.
Peckerwood also claims that his Marshall tube amp was sounding louder than a Studiomaster Mosfet 1000 amp that he owns as well.
Well - first of all don't forget that this Studiomaster is not a very new amp so some changeing of PSU caps etc would be in order. The other thing is that a guitar tube amp has much less control over the speakers and therefore resonant peaks from the speakers are much more prominent. This - combined with the distortion characteristics - give the impression of increased loudness.
I do believe him without doubt that the tube amp makes the louder impression in his application. But if one would play clean and really wideband signals (like my ERB for instance) the Studiomaster would eat his Marshall for brakfast.
Back on topic: Class-D is fine for bass and really the only reasonable solution for a battery-powered portable bass-amp. And for bass amps in general as well.
Regards
Charles
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This. A 300-watt Ampeg SVT-CL tube amp head of Ampeg's "Heritage" line is hardly a definition of neutral sound and even less of portability. It weighs about 38 kilos. That's ludicrous compared to e.g. TC Electronic's 450-watt class-D bass heads that weigh about four kilos.
While this is already a convenient power/weight ratio one can go even further: AMarkbass F1 weighs only silightly more than 2 kg for 500 Watts.
Talk about taking your amp with you in your gigbag !
Regards
Charles
Talk about taking your amp with you in your gigbag !
Regards
Charles
Distorted sound is louder than clean sound, valve amps always sound far louder than their specs suggest because of their high distortion levels.
A 30W valve amp is probably just as 'loud' as a 100W transistor amp.
OK for playing distorted guitar, but not much use for vocals 😀
For example, this is a scope capture of a tube "Trainwreck" clone amp.
People hype up the sound of Trainwreck amps but the supposed soft clipping of tubes apparently has nothing to do with that.
I have built the TW Express and it is a very strange beast. It only sounds great if you're an excellent lead player. In that case,it has a tone like no other. Otherwise,if you're a bad guitar player (like me),it's a waste of good components. 😉 Another problem is that to get that signature killer tone the volume must be very close to maxed. Although it's rated at only 35 watts it's a bit louder than my 80 watt SS Peavey.
If you're looking for an original, I think they're going for upwards of $20,000.00😱 That's a lot considering you can build one for only 400.00
Don
Depends what you want from the bass 😀
There are plenty of people overdriving valve amps from bass guitars, just to try and compete with the over driven guitar amps. As the overall sound is so distorted you can't really tell that the bass is anyway.
Even worse (bass-player's nightmare): You might have a modern bass with nice overtone, a cab with a good tweeter, new strings etc. You play your bass alone and you have great tone.
and then there comes a guitar player with heavily distorted tone - no one will notice your nice bass tone anymore it all gets buried in the guitar-mud. :-(
Regards
Charles
An essential piece of equipment for a sound engineer is a pair of large pliers, for adjusting the guitarists finger joints 😀
A couple of years back, at a childrens event called MusicX (where kids meet on Monday, are sorted into bands, write songs and rehearse all week, and then gig on the Friday) there was a band with four lead guitarists. There are always loads of guitarists who join, so this band ended up with four, all young teenage lads.
There's also always a lack of singers, so they had a girl provided, one of a number who regularly attend the venue - as unpaid volunteers.
Anyway, back to the plot - they did a cover of 'Smoke On The Water', which I suspect the girl singer had never heard of - but you had four lead guitarists all trying to play louder than each other. The result was just noise, it's a song I know well (I still have the original vinyl), but you couldn't even hear the main rift.
It seems to be a boy thing though?, girl guitarists aren't like that - they may be just as good guitarists, but they don't have the attitude. Given the choice I'd much sooner engineer a band full of girls - mind you, you do get the bitchy attitude off stage 😀
Peavey used to make a small practice called Micro Bass. It had an 8" driver and sounded good for what it was. Maybe you could pick one up used and mod the power supply. It would certainly be the cheapest route. Even if you had to build a new amp inside of the cab. Maybe use 2 12V 5 amp hr SLA batteries to run it
Don
Well while I could have been more clear about it by not following "people trying to sell them" with "they commonly list their advantages as" I did write them in separate paragraphs.
The advantages I listed are listed on so many different sites I really don't think I should have to point them out to you. Any online encyclopedia or any audio magazine online. They are too numerous to list so here is one I picked at random :
Class D Amplifiers Are Shrinking and Greening Your Electronics | Listening Post
"The big advantage with Class D amplifiers is that they’re much more efficient from an energy usage point of view than conventional Class AB amplifiers, which are what you’ve seen in most audio equipment up until now,"
"Class AB amps typically run at between 15 and 40 percent efficiency when playing back music, while Class D amps run at between 40 and 85 percent. And that’s only part of the picture."
"But then, in addition, because the amplifier’s more efficient it has less heat to get rid of, so heat sinks can be smaller, or maybe (the devices) don’t even have a heat sink at all, which makes the equipment then smaller and lighter."
"These efficient designs lower shipping costs and ultimately contribute less mass to our planet’s landfills. The effect may be negligible on a per-unit basis, but when you consider that Class D could result in the vast majority of the world’s sound-producing electronics consuming less than half as much energy as they used to and they are being manufactured at much smaller sizes, it’s clear that the economically-driven trend towards Class D amplifiers will have a significant positive effect on the environment."
If you want to read them in an actual list form like I wrote them, Wikipedia or any encyclopedia online has it that way. If you think Wikipedia is not a reliable source I agree with you. Go to a real encyclopedia.
Well there you go. You just admitted that you CAN tell the difference in sound quality. That is exactly what I am doing. Looking for what you call poorer sound quality.
Yes. So?
But only because I am in the same room with both of them. You would agree if you were too. If you couldn't make up your mind then we could just see which one you could stay in the room longer while it is cranked and you would be able to stay in the room with the MOSFET 1000 for a lot longer which could be actually turned all the way up if you like or wherever you wanted it set whereass the 100 watt Marshall could not possibly be turned all the way up but would still be much louder.
It is much newer than either of my 100 watt Marshalls. My 50 watt Marshall is newer than the Studiomaster.
Any amp would probably eat any amp if you custom tailored the way you ran it specifically for that purpose. A clean Marshall is louder than a distorted one though. If I ran it as clean as possible you would not be able to stay in the same room as long as you could if I ran it very distorted. Besides that if I ran my amps the way you would I very well might (as in maybe yes or maybe no because I will never know for sure) get the same results that you do but that is never going to happen so it is purely academic.
I agree.
Just to be clear you did say with guitar amps. Is that what you actually mean? What did you say your definition of louder is? On a scope or meter? If so then distorted sound is NOT louder. I assure you a clean guitar amp sounds louder than a distorted one. You could stay in the same room longer with a distorted one. That would be true for anybody as long as I was operating the amp. Nobody would be able to stay in the room with the clean one for longer or even for as long. A clean bright guitar amp will send people running for their lives long before a very distorted one will. Don't believe me? Hook up a Fender Twin reverb (combo amp with 2 x 12 speakers) and crank that mother way up sometime. It will sound a WHOLE LOT louder than any Marshall amp with as many 4 x 12 cabinets as you like because Twins are very clean compared to a Marshall.
Now since I am talking hearing you would have to actually do these things at great volume to even know whether or not I am right. Nothing you can read or think about will tell you. But if I have the equipment and you are there I can prove it to you beyond a shadow of even your doubt. A Fender twin would make you cry I bet. They make me not actually cry but my eyes water and my nose runs and I drool and possibly pee in my pants just a little because they are the loudest guitar amps I have ever heard do to being so clean relative to any Marshall. I don't use them and those are a few of the reasons why. But the hardest amp to stand at high volume would be a solid state completely clean guitar amp with absolutely no distortion at all either real or artificial cranked up. You would run out of your own house and not come back until it was over.
😀
True but I don't know what your point is. Well true in that 30 watts is ok for playing guitar but not for playing guitar with the band I am in. It wouldn't quite cut it I don't think. With a different drummer maybe. It would be close though. But I am not sure though because I do not have a 30 watt amp here. But even if it were loud enough it wouldn't sound the way I want it to sound. 50 watts is more than enough for that but it wouldn't sound the way I want it to sound either. A 100 watt amp and a 50 watt amp probably sound the same to you but they sound different. Maybe you can't detect the difference but it is there and many non musicians can tell the difference.
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