Make a louder impression = sounds louder doesn't it? I think you might not know the difference between extremely loud and distorted.
The fact that you have any desire to break any guitar players fingers, even if you would never actually do it, is evidence that you had a serious bias before you ever even knew who I was. It is also a clear indication that you know many other people who you believe see or in this case hear things the way you think that I do. I doubt many of them like to play as loud as I do though. Maybe they do. The day that I ran my stuff the way I believe would please you I would be considered a complete sellout by people who like to listen to us (the band and me) and sometimes even pay to listen to us (all three of them) and rightly so. I do not have even the slightest deep seeded desire to hurt you or the way I believe you are or any other sound engineer no matter what they do or how they run sound. I don't have the slightest desire to tell you or convince you how to run the sound either unless you are running it for me. It is not a competition for me. I am not looking to defeat you. I don't want to talk you into using different equipment. I thought you might get something from knowing the way I see things. It could not possibly hurt for you to have a little more insight into the perspective I have nor visa-versa. I have done your job before and while I enjoy it I am much better at playing the music and it comes a lot easier to me. I guess being behind the board all the time you have a lot of pent up aggression. You might try exercising more or shooting small arms or something. The smell of black powder and cordite can be very relaxing. Maybe nail the old lady more often or something.
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The actual point is that the original thread-starter wants to know about PORTABLE BASS amplifiers running in class-D !!!! Simple as that ! He doesn't want to play guitar through it but bass. Well you migh argue that a bass is some kind of guitar - well to me it isn't - since I wouldn't want to be called a bass-GUITAR player !
I mentioned the technical reasons for that and I also said that this could be possible without doubt. But it is only valid for your appliucation. If I would try to make a modern bass sound the Studiomaster would win with great lengths.
And another thing: The suspicion turned up that by cranking you actually mean the position of the loudness pot(s).
Regards
Charles
One more thing. I hope that you know that I would not be here if I had anything better to do right now. That is my goal. To shoot the sheeet with whoever wants to shoot it with me about whatever comes up and learn and/or help others learn but only when I don't have anything better to do. It is not important to me to win an argument with you or anybody and I do not see this as an argument. Just a discussion. So I don't even dream about sticking red hot fireplace pokers into your ears or any other sound guys ears nor does that thought ever even fleetingly cross my mind because you don't **** me off.
As long as you work for another band I wouldn't want you to run the sound like I like and I prefer that you use class D amps and solid state guitar amps and even direct bass guitar. I love it when other bands use direct bass guitar and I just bet that you like that a lot don't you? I think that is great. I really do learn a lot from you guys. Just not what stuff sounds like. I don't need any help learning that. So I very rarely comment on circuits and stuff like that because it is not my specialty so to speak which is not to say I do not have a very good general knowledge of electronics. I just don't believe I have anything beyond what you guys know to add to the conversation. I read all the threads though. I only comment if I believe I have something to add. And that is nearly always in the music, musicians or off topic sections.
As long as you work for another band I wouldn't want you to run the sound like I like and I prefer that you use class D amps and solid state guitar amps and even direct bass guitar. I love it when other bands use direct bass guitar and I just bet that you like that a lot don't you? I think that is great. I really do learn a lot from you guys. Just not what stuff sounds like. I don't need any help learning that. So I very rarely comment on circuits and stuff like that because it is not my specialty so to speak which is not to say I do not have a very good general knowledge of electronics. I just don't believe I have anything beyond what you guys know to add to the conversation. I read all the threads though. I only comment if I believe I have something to add. And that is nearly always in the music, musicians or off topic sections.
I don't understand what you mean.
But see how good natured I am? I didn't even get offended when you assumed I had never changed the filter caps in the MOSFET instead of asking me if I had.
What would the amplitude of those spikes be on a scope compared to the non spikes?
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On our stage you would only bge worried about hearing yourself over the drums and maybe about not being able to hear my guitar enough. Unless you walk over to my side of the stage. Then you might have a hard time hearing your bass. In the middle you would have a hard time hearing either one of us. Lance goes through a pair of sticks on a few songs at the most. He doesnt break them. He turns them into saw dust. He has 26 inch kick drums that ring out a lot more than many drummers and his drumming just generally is a lot louder and makes a lot more noise too. Double kick drums make a lot more noise than double pedals on a single kick drum and those are the only reasons I know of but he is just loud as satan. I have never heard any drummer as loud as him without mics on his set and we don't play without mics on his set. Not because the drums are not loud enough. They are plenty loud enough without mics. They don't sound right without them though. There are female bands who blow most other bands away musically whether they have an attitude or not. Here is one right here. And whenever I post an example of a band it is always something live. Not one of their better songs but the only live one.
YouTube - Girlschool-Emergency
Of course I am well aware that live recordings are not always all that live. You can go into the studio and punch in tracks just as easily as you could do it if it were all recorded in the studio. It is hard to tell how much or how little that has been done. But I think it is likely that it has been done less or possibly not at all by this band because the less money a band makes the less likely they have done it as much or at all. But if you are a musician and you happen to know how to play the song in the video you can catch punch ins a lot easier than somebody who does not know how to play the songs but not always. These chicks happen to have more attitude than most guy bands though. They will drink you under the table and hurt you real real bad. They drank Motorhead under the table every night for a whole tour one time.
These chicks are great too. Probably more likely to have punched in stuff in the studio but that doesn't mean they did for sure. This chick is not a great lead player but she plays rhythm as good as any guy and better than most. As for attitude I have never met them so I don't know.
YouTube - The Donnas - It's On The Rocks (V Festival 2002)
I did. He asked me what the problem is and I said "what?" Then he wrote down on paper "what is the problem?" I said "well my eyes are watering, I am drooling, my nose is running, my ears are bleeding and I peed myself a little bit." He said "hmmmm.. you haven't been playing through a Fender twin reverb have you?" "Yes" I replied. So he wrote me a prescription for a Marshall MK 2 Superlead 100 watt with 2 4 x 12 cabinets and my symptoms cleared right up.
I swear those are the loudest amps those Fender Twins. The heaviest too. Not the sound but the weight. Anybody here ever use a Fender Twin Reverb?
I don't really understand why they are so loud. They are 120 watts as opposed to 100 watts on a Marshall but 20 watts won't make much difference at all and besides that you could never use the full 120 anyway. I don't care who you are you are not going to play a Twin with the volume on 10. It would probably sterilize you at least. Maybe cause erectile disfunction. I believe it would damage your chromosomes too.
I will tell you what the best Fender guitar amp is in my opinion. Those old Fender Bassmans. The 50 watt heads. They have 2 channels (one more than I need) and each channel only has Volume - Bass - Treble. They are terrible bass amps but great guitar amps. And much safer to operate than the Twin Reverbs.
I swear those are the loudest amps those Fender Twins. The heaviest too. Not the sound but the weight. Anybody here ever use a Fender Twin Reverb?
I don't really understand why they are so loud. They are 120 watts as opposed to 100 watts on a Marshall but 20 watts won't make much difference at all and besides that you could never use the full 120 anyway. I don't care who you are you are not going to play a Twin with the volume on 10. It would probably sterilize you at least. Maybe cause erectile disfunction. I believe it would damage your chromosomes too.
I will tell you what the best Fender guitar amp is in my opinion. Those old Fender Bassmans. The 50 watt heads. They have 2 channels (one more than I need) and each channel only has Volume - Bass - Treble. They are terrible bass amps but great guitar amps. And much safer to operate than the Twin Reverbs.
For a portable, good sounding bass amp/combo I would see if it is possible to do a valve pre and a class d power amp to run of batteries.
PS: The subjectively loudest guitar amp I've ever heard was a vintage Vox AC30. That did make my ears bleed unlike a vintage Fender Twin although the Fenders do sound nice and are excellent amps. Never heard a Marshall that was either as loud as an AC30 or as nice as a Twin Reverb.
PS: The subjectively loudest guitar amp I've ever heard was a vintage Vox AC30. That did make my ears bleed unlike a vintage Fender Twin although the Fenders do sound nice and are excellent amps. Never heard a Marshall that was either as loud as an AC30 or as nice as a Twin Reverb.
The only Fenders I like are the old Champs and 5E3 Deluxe. Marshall rules with the Plexi and the 18 Watt. But this one kicks all their a$$es.
YouTube - 1959 Les Paul & Trainwreck Amp - "Can You Hear It Ring?"
No pedals used - or needed.
Just for the record, a 5 watt tube amp is loud enough to play stadiums. As long as you can get killer tone from it, the sound man will do the rest.
Don
Edit: FWIW, this guy does his recordings at 116db and wears ear plugs. Of course the effect of high volume can't be experienced from a youtube clip running through computer speakers and tone also suffers.
YouTube - 1959 Les Paul & Trainwreck Amp - "Can You Hear It Ring?"
No pedals used - or needed.
Just for the record, a 5 watt tube amp is loud enough to play stadiums. As long as you can get killer tone from it, the sound man will do the rest.
Don
Edit: FWIW, this guy does his recordings at 116db and wears ear plugs. Of course the effect of high volume can't be experienced from a youtube clip running through computer speakers and tone also suffers.
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I have never played through a VOX AC-30 but from the few that I have heard I can believe that they are painfully loud. They are very clean (for a guitar amp) and that's what it takes to be painfully loud to my ears.
You CAN play a stadium with no amp. Run direct. I would never do it. You couldn't get the sound I want. You couldn't get it with a 5 watt amp either. Some bands like to play loud onstage. The way I look at it is this. If I expect anybody to sit out front and listen then I should be willing to expose myself to the same sound level that they will be exposed to and playing quiet onstage but cranking the PA does not do that. When we play I believe, but really do not know for certain, that the highest sound levels are on the stage. The levels are high enough that we can't put anything but vocals in the monitors and hear the vocals. Maybe if we had an unbelievable monitor system we could but not with a modest one. Although what I call a modest one many here would probably call ridiculesly powerful.
I have a Marshall JCM 900 50 watt head that has a half power switch on the back. When I switch it to half power (25 watts I guess) it is almost just as loud but it doesn't sound as "good". I went through a stage of removing tubes to lower the power but I came to the conclusion that it ruins the sound and doesn't really make it very less loud anyway. Plus there is a possibility it could damage the amp but I am not saying it will as a fact. I don't want to start a war here.
You CAN play a stadium with no amp. Run direct. I would never do it. You couldn't get the sound I want. You couldn't get it with a 5 watt amp either. Some bands like to play loud onstage. The way I look at it is this. If I expect anybody to sit out front and listen then I should be willing to expose myself to the same sound level that they will be exposed to and playing quiet onstage but cranking the PA does not do that. When we play I believe, but really do not know for certain, that the highest sound levels are on the stage. The levels are high enough that we can't put anything but vocals in the monitors and hear the vocals. Maybe if we had an unbelievable monitor system we could but not with a modest one. Although what I call a modest one many here would probably call ridiculesly powerful.
I have a Marshall JCM 900 50 watt head that has a half power switch on the back. When I switch it to half power (25 watts I guess) it is almost just as loud but it doesn't sound as "good". I went through a stage of removing tubes to lower the power but I came to the conclusion that it ruins the sound and doesn't really make it very less loud anyway. Plus there is a possibility it could damage the amp but I am not saying it will as a fact. I don't want to start a war here.
bigbeck, that amp sounds good. I would never pay anything close to that much for one though. If I were to be nitpicky I would say it is not quite bright enough for me. If it were the same price as a Marshall MK 2 Superlead 100 watt I would honestly choose the Marshall but I might also have the Marshall modified.
But I would choose that amp over any SS amp and some tube amps too. For the record I will admit that SS guitar amps sound light years better than they did a long time ago. But they still do not sound as good as a good tube amp. They are not as expressive. When you play through a SS amp it is easier to get a decent tone than it is playing through a tube amp. You have to work harder for your tone with a tube amp. But with a SS amp you can't ever get a GREAT tone and you can with a tube amp if you work hard enough. With SS a decent tone is as good as it gets.
But I would choose that amp over any SS amp and some tube amps too. For the record I will admit that SS guitar amps sound light years better than they did a long time ago. But they still do not sound as good as a good tube amp. They are not as expressive. When you play through a SS amp it is easier to get a decent tone than it is playing through a tube amp. You have to work harder for your tone with a tube amp. But with a SS amp you can't ever get a GREAT tone and you can with a tube amp if you work hard enough. With SS a decent tone is as good as it gets.
Used to do the sound in a local club years ago during which time I came across all sorts of amps (ie Marshall stacks, any type of Fender, Boogies etc) but nothing got close to the AC30. With that one we had to turn it so it fired backstage and not mic it up so we could hear the PA over it. Not bad for a 30w combo amp!
The only SS guitar amp worth anything is the Roland Jazz Chorus for clean sounds. Other than that it's valves all the way IMO.
For bass however it is totally different, clean is good here (except metal of course) and 9 out of 10 recorded basses have been DI'd even if the bassist plays through his rig. A bass-playing friend of mine usually just brings his instrument and a DI box to gigs even though he loves his SWR.
BTW for a small, portable bass rig this driver might be worth a look:
MONACOR INTERNATIONAL😛roduct detail page
The only SS guitar amp worth anything is the Roland Jazz Chorus for clean sounds. Other than that it's valves all the way IMO.
For bass however it is totally different, clean is good here (except metal of course) and 9 out of 10 recorded basses have been DI'd even if the bassist plays through his rig. A bass-playing friend of mine usually just brings his instrument and a DI box to gigs even though he loves his SWR.
BTW for a small, portable bass rig this driver might be worth a look:
MONACOR INTERNATIONAL😛roduct detail page
I know that is right. Personally I prefer bass guitar to be both direct and also with a mic on the amp using 2 channels on the board (and 2 tracks if recording). A direct bass will give you that deep clean sound that you can feel in your chest but the mic on the amp gives it that sound that you can hear with your ears more but of course that will vary a lot depending on the bass amp.
Sometimes I like a distorted sound off of the mic but with a clean direct sound with it.
I have seen bands playing live with direct guitar. That is just wrong. It is wrong. It is so wrong.
What kind of tubes are in that VOX amp?
Sometimes I like a distorted sound off of the mic but with a clean direct sound with it.
I have seen bands playing live with direct guitar. That is just wrong. It is wrong. It is so wrong.
What kind of tubes are in that VOX amp?
The Trainwreck express is actually a very bright amp. In fact, unbearably bright with single coils. Kind of like the AC30. Of course the clip does sound a little dark, but it's only a clip. I bet you'd change your tune after spending a couple of hours with it. It's not worth 20,000.00 though. Except to a collector. Fortunately, it's a fairly simple build. You can do it for under 500.00 in parts unless you want it to be vintage correct. In that case you can easily spend 1,000.00 in parts + cab + speakers. And like any scratch build,there's no guarantee that high zoot parts will make the amp sound any better than using cheap generic parts. Good parts may make the amp last longer. But who wants a bad sounding amp to last a long time?😀 Do you think that Marshall & Fender used high end components in their amps in the 50's and 60's? You can bet they used the cheapest junk that money could buy and these are tones that we strive to recreate.
Anyways, the guy that recorded that clip uses a 40 foot guitar cable to help tame the high frequencies. He's also using vintage correct speakers in the Marshall cab. This amp does not sound so good with bright speakers or single coil pickups. It's a lead players amp, period. It does not sound good as a rhythm amp.
Don
Are you going to let me borrow one? What are the pre-amp tubes in that 12-AX7? Is there 3 of them or 4 of them?
Well I can't use that then. Rhythm is what I didn't think it was bright enough for. I have to have an amp that sounds good for both but especially for rhythm because I play all the lead but I spend more time playing rhythm than lead and rhythm is more important. I did think it sounded good though.
Have you ever played through an old (I mean real old like early 70s) Orange 80 watt head? Man those suckers sound good. They sound a lot different than a Marshall or anything else really. They kind of sound like Billy Gibbons on the three albums (ZZ Top) "Tres Hombres", "Fandango" and "Tejas". Those three records are phenomenal and the guitar tone is about the best I have ever heard. I don't think he was using Oranges but that is what Oranges sound like sort of.
I just realized you said EL-84. For some reason I was thinking EL-34 until just now. I have never used EL-84 tubes before.
Hmm..... wonder if this link will work? The purpose is to show how loud a 5 watt tube amp and efficient speaker really is. It's recorded on a tiny Zoom hand held recorder. No mixing or effects of any kind, unless you want to call a slide an effect. Of course the quality is very poor compared to live. I'm playing drums and my son is playing guitar.
One of the major problems with posting internet clips is that it is impossible to tell how loud an amp really is. A .5 watt amp can sound as loud as a 100 watt amp over the internet. I used acoustic drums as a reference because most everyone can relate to that volume - at least all you musicians. Listen to the SE Wreck clip as that's the lowest power tube amp that I have.
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One of the major problems with posting internet clips is that it is impossible to tell how loud an amp really is. A .5 watt amp can sound as loud as a 100 watt amp over the internet. I used acoustic drums as a reference because most everyone can relate to that volume - at least all you musicians. Listen to the SE Wreck clip as that's the lowest power tube amp that I have.
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EL84's are smallish B9A valves, four of them will give about 25W in a guitar amp, and probably 15W in a HiFi amp where quality matters. EL34's are much larger Octal valves, four will give 100W in a guitar amp.
We used to run two old valve amps for PA for a while in the 70's, four KT88's giving 200W per side. We later replaced them both with a small 100W+100W Citronic slave amp, which was louder than the two valve amps, and much more reliable (not to mention lighter). For speakers we used two Altec style 12 inch bins either side of the stage, and a couple of HH Electronics treble units.
For the Altec type bins we actually hired a real one (a 15 inch one), took it to pieces and copied it - we made two 15 inch versions (which were crap, as the speakers we used were two good - too low resonance - but we didn't know that back then). But we also scaled it down to 12 inch, fitted cheap Goodmans 12P speakers (£12 each), and had the chipboard cut to size (£8 each) - they sounded absolutely great, and only cost £20 each unit, they were simply crudely painted with matt black paint.
So four cheap 12 inch speakers, 100W+100W amplifier, and it worked great and was really loud. The limiting factor was feedback from the microphones, not how loud it would go.
Don't times change? 😀
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