Defining full range magic

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#22
Racket Scientist said:
you could also make the argument that its kind of like trying to make music with a vacuum cleaner attached to a balloon -
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That would be me croaking along with the tune - and most likely missing on the timing end of things to boot. That's why I HAVE TO LISTEN to others make music - the only way I have any chance at all is to drop a couple of quarters into the jukebox!!! 😀
 
#27
VictoriaGuy said:
😉
That's what I have done (with a lot of help from Planet10).
:lifesavr:
But, doesn't that make it a 2-way speaker with a woofer and a high woof/mid/tweeter aka 'Full'-Range?
When I see a 'Full-Range' speaker with a woof added for bass and a tweeter sitting on top of the cab.......
Probably real 'Fullrange' is just not physically possible?
John
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be serious - that's just terminology ;

take Lowther , or any other FR ; look at his data and listen ; you can call entire category "Mushroom" (instead of "full range" ) .......... that doesn't change a bit about physical things .

besides - speaker itself doesn't need helper woof and helper tweet ; you need them :clown:
 
#28
motosapien said:
Be interesting to hear what others think is the reasons that full range speakers have that magical quality.
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I don't know. Maybe, when you engineer a driver for wide bandwidth, the engineering constraints give you something that is musical, irrespective of whether it is actually used full-range or not. I think that might be an aspect.

Then ... Is the simple load a fullrange presents more beneficial? - to the average amplifier?

Then ... could it be that the box types that are normally used with fullranges have certain aspects that are more musical to us?

Maybe it's that in multi-way systems, the flaws of the different drivers add up, but in a fullrange system, perhaps the flaws of the single driver are more easily ignored by our sense of hearing, even though they are more apparent or measurable.

Then, I am Quite Certain that fullrangers do something that is simply hard to measure, and therefore hard to back up. But you know it when you hear it, yeah?

Then there's the question of the artisan. Working with a single element, the working process is way different than working with multiple interacting elements. You tend to go deeper into fewer things, and things are usually found at depth.

This is true in photography - fixed lens vs. zoom lens; The fixed-lens photos tend have more charm. IMO. Electronic music - few simple components that you have mastered vs. a soup of digital instruments; Motorcycles ... I want an air-cooled Ducati. Simple, light, synergistic ... Not as powerful or fast as the plastic-clad bikes, it's going to lose in most races, but still its appeal is obvious, and visceral.
 
#29
FR simply means "continuity"

btw. that picture simply demands inclusion here 😉

Ducati%20Sport%201000%2006%20%201.jpg
 
#30
Yes indeed a single full-range speaker is more natural, more coherent, more honest than anything else, and the proof is in Nature.

We are always better with single high-quality devices doing everything, sorts of one-stop-shops, and this is why animals and human beings only have 1 leg and 1 arm, and we get the confirmation of this in industry with all cars having 1-cylinder engines, with all houses having only 1 window, and so on. Yes, we feel so much better when light, vibrations and sound are coming from one single, coherent source.

Nature is an obvious example proving that diversity, redundency, complementarity and interferences are the wrong things.

However, if you want quality full-range speakers then of course you need a membrane made of unobtainium, having a strong wide surface capable of a big Xmax for the low frequencies shrinking into a small lightweight surface for the high frequencies, without any horn effect, with a wide dispersion angle.

No need to say, Nature is so generous that unobtainium can be obtained everywhere for free in unlimited quantities.

We are so happy with full range drivers ! In this, we obey the Nature, isn't ?

Full-range single drivers are so successfull that we find them everywhere now, and on top of this there are new high-tech models so successful, more and more beloved by the listeners, like the NXT flat speakers.

Full-Range drivers like Fostex FE87E, Fostex FE107E, Fostex FE127E or Fostex FE167E are so successfull with their sub-millimeter Xmax that we find them systematically in all 2 square meter living rooms - because a 2 square meter living room is the max surface such a tiny membrane with a tiny Xmax can energize for getting realistic listening levels between 30 Hz to 15 kHz.

During more than 30 years, the world of sound engineers must be very wrong in selecting the Yamaha NS-10M as preferred monitor in control rooms. Oh my God, why chosing a 2-way device ? This would thus mean that most of our recorded material is ill ?

Smart people then want to get the max frequency beyond 20 kHz so they chose even smaller membranes like 2 inch or less, needing more Xmax for attaining the same listening levels. Such drivers have an efficiency like 82 dB/watt (Tangband) so they need close to 10 Watt power, becoming hot.

Smart people then organize those very tiny drivers in linear arrays like 10 drivers in a narrow column, each driver receiving 1 Watt. Problem with such arrangement is the very sharp directivity. You need to place the array at a very precise height otherwise the frequency response gets completely distorted.

Having seen the limitations of small diameter drivers, you will then try to find 5 inch or 8 inch diameter full range drivers combining a Xmax of 4 millimeter or so, a low directivity like less than 3 dB variation from 1 Khz to 8 kHz from 0 degree to 30 degree, and capable of reproducing 15 kHz at -3dB on-axis. I you find one, call me.

After 30 years designing loudspeakers, the sole and only Full-Range Speaker I am listening with a big satisfaction, should I say pleasure, is the Sony MDR-E818LP. This is a well engineered piece of hardware, available and affordable. Next time when you evaluate a soi-disant high quality Full-Range Speaker, remember to compare with the Sony MDR-E818LP.

I found some interesting drivers like Dynavox FE87 here.
http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAP...033399&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_1814wt_899
I bougt a couple, measured them, and to my surprise they work extremely well untill 15 kHz, with a smooth roll-off without any pronounced directivity. At the moment, this is my preferred Full-Range speaker.

There is another one, slightly more expensive, Dynavox FR88.
http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/High-End-Dy...r_Selbstbau&hash=item2eada90f3f#ht_1834wt_899
They measure as good as the Dynavox FE87.
 
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#36
Just a precision about the Dynavox FE87 and Dynavox FR88. Actualy their bandwidth extends untill 7 kHz, with a smooth roll-off after 7 kHz easy to equalize untill 15 kHz. What's amazing with those speakers is that the cone doesn't seem to break-up past 7 kHz as both the amplitude curve and the phase curve stay steady and linear past 7 kHz. It is only after equalization (say a 1st-order increase between 7 kHz and 20 kHz) that you get an amazing 15 Khz bandwidth without needing to deal with cone break-up issues.
 
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#37
Not sure how to define it, maybe it's just the sheer simplicity of the method?

My system is quite simple and sounds really nice in my room.. Cables from amp terminals directly to terminals on fe108esigmas, no fuss no muss.. Added in a dash/dose of Martins Goldwood H-frames via a separate amp, and there ya go 🙂

Life can be complicated enough, why put that on your stereo system?.. Joking a bit there, but simple is key to most things I think...

To use the auto type analogy, all the bells and whistles can be nice, but when things start to go wrong, look out $$$$.. I prefer good ol' fashioned hand cranked windows and reliability lol...

My couple of pennies ..
 
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