we can discuss how sweet is sweet
and how precise is the simulation and how big is difference between 250 and 300 cmbut anyway, when it's enough one knows it's enough and that is what ultimately counts
BTW the vise problem of head movements is not so much of the beamwidth but it's intrinsic to all front-firing speakers with restricted dispersion
with my omni I haven't got any such problem
best,
graaf
ps.
@Thornspawn
You are right! I took a look on those graphs once again and yes the spot would be closer to 25cm @300cm, my mistake
perhaps to alleviate this problem one could make a sort of coaxial one-and-a-half-way - for example the central 36 driven as full-range and the rest around it low-passed
and/or apply some power tapering - easy to do with appropriate wiring to achieve desired overall higher impedance of the quieter section
best!
graaf
@Thornspawn
You are right! I took a look on those graphs once again and yes the spot would be closer to 25cm @300cm, my mistake
perhaps to alleviate this problem one could make a sort of coaxial one-and-a-half-way - for example the central 36 driven as full-range and the rest around it low-passed
and/or apply some power tapering - easy to do with appropriate wiring to achieve desired overall higher impedance of the quieter section
best!
graaf
Last edited:
yes, but... well, all the buts have been already presented earlier in this thread
yes, and there was also a bit about Bessel arrays earlier in this thread
the gain of 10x10 is enormous, no problem in limiting it a bit
best regards,
graaf
no, You didn't
does it make any difference?
I just have an intuition that from perspective of room-loudspeaker as a system there are only two valid approaches leading to best results in terms of realism - omnidirectional which means (in a sense) taking the speakers as distinct sound sources as such out of the sound equation and extremely beaming, which means taking the room out of the sound equation
anything in between is a kind of compromise
best,
graaf
graaf,
Interesting ideas.
But everything is a compromise.
There is no way to not have "distinct sound sources" and still have stereo.
Not as far as I know.
Maybe you can suggest something?
Otoh, nothing "takes the room out of the equation" except being outside.
Try ur speakers outside some time, and not on a hard surface either.
That will surprise you, I expect.
You will learn just how much "room" you are used to hearing all the time.
_-_-bear
Interesting ideas.
But everything is a compromise.
There is no way to not have "distinct sound sources" and still have stereo.
Not as far as I know.
Maybe you can suggest something?
Otoh, nothing "takes the room out of the equation" except being outside.
Try ur speakers outside some time, and not on a hard surface either.
That will surprise you, I expect.
You will learn just how much "room" you are used to hearing all the time.
_-_-bear
oh yes, more or less
I mean practically not have, things like transaural stereo (as in ambiophonics) where lack of loudspeaker crosstalk means that each loudspeaker as such is heard with one ear only so that it is practically not localizable as a distinct sound source because of lack of any binaural localization cues
loudspeaker can be also effectively drowned in early reflections and in such way acoustically hidden as a distinct sound source itself, as in my proposition of the flooder (the "Loudspeakers and room as a system" thread on multi-way forum)
again - practically - I mean lowering the room contribution to sound enough to eliminate its detrimental effects on spatial reproduction as in Dr Geddes' waveguides, other wideband horns and so on
and also vertical line sources WRT practical elimination of distinct floor and ceiling reflection effects - with big square array such as 10x10 it is possible to achieve similar results in the horizontal plane as well so that with floor, ceiling and side-walls' early contribution to sound eliminated we can say that much (perhaps enough) of the room is taken out of the sound equation, at least from perspective of some qualities especially critical - that is where the room effects are especially detrimental to realism of reproduction - I mean spatial qualities
best regards,
graaf
ps.
BTW can You tell me what kind of a graph is this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/164797-200-x-2-drivers-what-do-12.html#post2180800
Where can I find software for making such graphs?
I wonder how would 6x6 graphs look alike.
graf,
I urge you to actually take a long extension cord and go outside with your speakers onto soft ground (grass, etc...) and listen.
You've got a lot of ideas, and one of the things that I take issue with is that you speak about your ideas as if they were fact - which they are not always....
I think your idea about the 10 x 10 array not having significant interactions with the room is incorrect.
Go outside and see what things sound like when there is positively NO interaction with a wall or ceiling possible. Then report back?
A really properly set up, built and configured stereo speaker system will give zero clue as to where the speaker is located. If you take away the visual cue (hang a thin "curtain" back lit so you can not see through... try it, very surprising effect) then you'll have no idea if there even is a speaker there...
Perhaps you have yet to experience this??
_-_-bear
PS. you might also want to look into the Beveridge design for ESLs... might be up your alley?
I urge you to actually take a long extension cord and go outside with your speakers onto soft ground (grass, etc...) and listen.
You've got a lot of ideas, and one of the things that I take issue with is that you speak about your ideas as if they were fact - which they are not always....
I think your idea about the 10 x 10 array not having significant interactions with the room is incorrect.
Go outside and see what things sound like when there is positively NO interaction with a wall or ceiling possible. Then report back?
A really properly set up, built and configured stereo speaker system will give zero clue as to where the speaker is located. If you take away the visual cue (hang a thin "curtain" back lit so you can not see through... try it, very surprising effect) then you'll have no idea if there even is a speaker there...
Perhaps you have yet to experience this??
_-_-bear
PS. you might also want to look into the Beveridge design for ESLs... might be up your alley?
well, that is not my idea
my idea is that 10x10 has sufficiently higher direct/reflected sound energy ratio to make significantly better sound in some respects, that is all
believe me or not but with my own speakers I can experience such disappearing act even when strong visual cue is present, and even with only one loudspeaker playing mono
but there is much more, it is not only a question of disappearing act but also of different quality of imaging, of the reach out and touch effect
yes, that's correct, and if You search the diyaudio with keyword "Beveridge" plus user name "graaf" You will find some 40 posts
best,
graaf
search "Loudspeakers and room as a system" thread
well, actually no one knows what to think, but those who tried were surprised with what they heard, just as with those square arrays
but the problem is that as el`Ol put it:
Haven't really had time. I've been getting the house ready for the impending arrival of my first child. It's hanging in the corner of my workshop playing radio and looking pretty.
I also built these.
MTM in ported enclosures using Dayton drivers and 2 10" powered subs all covered in gloss black laminate.
I'm currently working on an MTMWW set with some trippy curved enclosures and 8" subs.
Will get back to this projest one day.
I also built these.
MTM in ported enclosures using Dayton drivers and 2 10" powered subs all covered in gloss black laminate.
I'm currently working on an MTMWW set with some trippy curved enclosures and 8" subs.
Will get back to this projest one day.
good news
I think that speakers sound differently in stereo and as they are intended to work in stereo they really should also be tested in stereo and as You already have one 10x10 my vote is on building the other one
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.