Hello John
Sounds to me like you need a new signature line. The cost of the system is not the issue. It's the correlation of user preference to measured response. The research doesn't say to go out and purchase the cheapest stuff you can find.
Rob🙂
Sounds to me like you need a new signature line. The cost of the system is not the issue. It's the correlation of user preference to measured response. The research doesn't say to go out and purchase the cheapest stuff you can find.
Rob🙂
Have you ever tried to build an audio product, Robh? I have, in fact, I share a warehouse with someone who makes loudspeakers. Do you know what a decent speaker cabinet costs the manufacturer? If not, you cannot understand what I was saying.
2 much logic John ... gonna upset a few !!!!
Cabinet manufacturing cost along with Cost of receiving cabinets if not done in house is the biggest cost in speaker manufacturing, add to that, Cabinet wastage.. that's cabinets damaged while being manufactured, you have to eat those 2 by paying full pop for them ...
Regards,
Cabinet manufacturing cost along with Cost of receiving cabinets if not done in house is the biggest cost in speaker manufacturing, add to that, Cabinet wastage.. that's cabinets damaged while being manufactured, you have to eat those 2 by paying full pop for them ...
Regards,
Hello John
Well I build DIY speakers so I pay retail for all of my materials so I actually pay more than a manufacturer for the raw materials. It's not cheap so what's your point?? What does the cost of speaker cabinets have to do with the legitimacy of the testing done??
Why not just say it and stop beating around the bush. All I see is a smoke screen about cost and no meat about the real issue which is the test results.
Hello a. Wayne
Gee I would have thought that it should be the drivers and crossovers. No wonder many DIY.
Rob:🙂
The Drivers ....😱
No Rob ...... the cabinet cost just kills yah,.The drivers represent another problem and funny enuf they are dictated by the marketed public not by best of choice....
No Rob ...... the cabinet cost just kills yah,.The drivers represent another problem and funny enuf they are dictated by the marketed public not by best of choice....
Why is that?? The consumer wants the best sound for their money no, I sure do. I pick a driver set based on which ones I think will give me what I want and work best as a system. Are you saying it is fashion driven?? Fashion in the sense that X makes the best tweeter?? If it is that leaves allot to be desired. I have seen drivers responses compromised due to market pressures but have not heard of fashion dictating drivers used. That's just plain dumb when the fashion choices compromise the overall design.
Rob🙂
I suspect that most of the public doesn't care what the tweeter brand or model is. They want a name brand they recognize, a look they want, and sound that strikes them as "expensive" or "impressive."
Maybe I'm a little late but still...
A superstraight frequency responce isn't always what is wanted. When doing listening tests it's often found some coloration is preferred. Myself I prefer a little lift in the bass for a fuller sound. It's not correct but hey, neither is the PA sytems at concerts and we still enjoy the music.
A superstraight frequency responce isn't always what is wanted. When doing listening tests it's often found some coloration is preferred. Myself I prefer a little lift in the bass for a fuller sound. It's not correct but hey, neither is the PA sytems at concerts and we still enjoy the music.
If you have a flat response ( avg) then with room gain there will be a "lift " so to speak , in your listening room , Unless you like the bottom end to be real hot and are going for that kind of sound ..
They care about the ones used by the "recommend" speakers as printed and hyped about by the mags... 🙄
They know what they read as the best to have and most recommended , flavor of the month so to speak , like diamond tweeters .....🙄
I also suspect that the vast majority of consumers don't read hifi magazines, either. The audio buff segment is a small niche.
consumer awareness
So true... I oft tell my Dr. wife (who agrees with my perspective) that, contrary to all the billboards, teevee, current administration, newspaper fullpage adds touting all hospitals to be of Lake Wobegone quality, the general public only thinks about medicine when they're sick and in need of treatment
Most are too busy texting/tweeting while driving...🙄😱
John L.
So true... I oft tell my Dr. wife (who agrees with my perspective) that, contrary to all the billboards, teevee, current administration, newspaper fullpage adds touting all hospitals to be of Lake Wobegone quality, the general public only thinks about medicine when they're sick and in need of treatment
Most are too busy texting/tweeting while driving...🙄😱
John L.
One major thread of Toole's book is the fatuousness of professional reviewers and oracles. Bunch of reasons for ridicule including evidence (not too clearly presented....) and maybe should be brought together for next edition in one place in a comic sidebar.
Funny, he praises his Corps of Trained Listeners for various talents (with the evidence not too fully presented...) but doesn't really set them up as some kind of elite judges but only like fancy test tools. Thank goodness he doesn't go weird on that point! Again, no acoustics per se, but deserves a whole unified sidebar.
Another related point: there is something I call the Argument from Comparative Esthetics. When researchers in esthetics ask for judgment of pairs of slides of say, two bronze busts one a great one and one made by my cousin, the "good one" is favored by artists everywhere, not just in the culture that produced that bust.
That is a strong argument favoring Toole's POV that a good speaker is good for everybody and everybody would choose the same speaker in a blind test.
That's a comforting thought except to those who rant on about personal preferences and individual tastes.
Funny, he praises his Corps of Trained Listeners for various talents (with the evidence not too fully presented...) but doesn't really set them up as some kind of elite judges but only like fancy test tools. Thank goodness he doesn't go weird on that point! Again, no acoustics per se, but deserves a whole unified sidebar.
Another related point: there is something I call the Argument from Comparative Esthetics. When researchers in esthetics ask for judgment of pairs of slides of say, two bronze busts one a great one and one made by my cousin, the "good one" is favored by artists everywhere, not just in the culture that produced that bust.
That is a strong argument favoring Toole's POV that a good speaker is good for everybody and everybody would choose the same speaker in a blind test.
That's a comforting thought except to those who rant on about personal preferences and individual tastes.
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I do agree that a good speaker would be chosen by everyone over bad.. If all Bad speakers , then you get choices based on personal preferences..
Most speakers are bad and with issues .....Hence !
Most speakers are bad and with issues .....Hence !
Hi,
we´re into thread nr. 96 already and still nobody has given a summary of the parameters of this ´test´. Apart from the authors name Toole and some infos about a listening room -which btw. differs much from the typical listeners room- nothing to bite your teeth in.
It´s my experience that most presentations and workshops regarding ESL speakers are far from optimum and present the poor speakers below their possibilities. Even manufacturer´s presentations suffer from the ill knowledge of the presenting personal or bad circumstances (like the need to use inappropriate electronics etc.)
Its also my experience that even famous names of the scene really don´t know any more about ESLs than interested readers of diyaudio-forum or any other hobbyist (sidenote: its interesting how many journalists -at least in Germany- listen to ESLs or hybrids in their private home setup but still know nothing about them but how to spell ´Elektrostat´).
So while the test conditions seem to be consistant for all testands the Q remains if these conditions are truely fair or if they represent a distinct advantage to one speaker principle or the other. Remained for example the room acoustics the same, or were it changed for different speakers? If it remained the same, were it optimized for direct radiating speakers or for dipolar radiating speakers? A situation which clearly puts one group under better working conditions than the other. Even if everything else in this test was perfect this single condition alone would handicap the one group in a way that could render the test results useless.
Positioning has been mentioned as a key parameter as well as room acoustics and the choice of the accompanied electronics. Since only one speaker using ESL-technology (hybrid? or full-range?) was compared the test could only be valid for these special test conditions.
The variations between good and bad between ESLs are similar to that between dynamic speakers. Somehow it seems though that a lot of people think of ESL-sound as if it were a natural constant, which it is of course not. Same as with dynamic speakers there are examples tending to the bad and some examples tending to the good side.
Besides....has anybody ever listened to a dynamic speaker that could reproduce the magic, airyness and authenticity of a good ESL?? I haven´t in 30 years 😀
So could anybody throw some light on the test conditions??
jauu
Calvin
we´re into thread nr. 96 already and still nobody has given a summary of the parameters of this ´test´. Apart from the authors name Toole and some infos about a listening room -which btw. differs much from the typical listeners room- nothing to bite your teeth in.
It´s my experience that most presentations and workshops regarding ESL speakers are far from optimum and present the poor speakers below their possibilities. Even manufacturer´s presentations suffer from the ill knowledge of the presenting personal or bad circumstances (like the need to use inappropriate electronics etc.)
Its also my experience that even famous names of the scene really don´t know any more about ESLs than interested readers of diyaudio-forum or any other hobbyist (sidenote: its interesting how many journalists -at least in Germany- listen to ESLs or hybrids in their private home setup but still know nothing about them but how to spell ´Elektrostat´).
So while the test conditions seem to be consistant for all testands the Q remains if these conditions are truely fair or if they represent a distinct advantage to one speaker principle or the other. Remained for example the room acoustics the same, or were it changed for different speakers? If it remained the same, were it optimized for direct radiating speakers or for dipolar radiating speakers? A situation which clearly puts one group under better working conditions than the other. Even if everything else in this test was perfect this single condition alone would handicap the one group in a way that could render the test results useless.
Positioning has been mentioned as a key parameter as well as room acoustics and the choice of the accompanied electronics. Since only one speaker using ESL-technology (hybrid? or full-range?) was compared the test could only be valid for these special test conditions.
The variations between good and bad between ESLs are similar to that between dynamic speakers. Somehow it seems though that a lot of people think of ESL-sound as if it were a natural constant, which it is of course not. Same as with dynamic speakers there are examples tending to the bad and some examples tending to the good side.
Besides....has anybody ever listened to a dynamic speaker that could reproduce the magic, airyness and authenticity of a good ESL?? I haven´t in 30 years 😀
So could anybody throw some light on the test conditions??
jauu
Calvin
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Hi,
nope Wayne, I think that a hybrid, a fusion of the dynamic and electrostatic world is the best. Anyway, does a non-american have to know what a Altec19 is? Think global!
jauu
Calvin
ps. still no infos 🙁
nope Wayne, I think that a hybrid, a fusion of the dynamic and electrostatic world is the best. Anyway, does a non-american have to know what a Altec19 is? Think global!
jauu
Calvin
ps. still no infos 🙁
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