Baloney. It's all well documented what the room conditions are like. You should be able to build the room although I can't imagine why you would think that it is necessary to do so.
https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dgkrf7p2_85fxbrc4d7
Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Harman International Reference Listening Room
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurComp...te Papers/HarmanWhitePaperMLLListeningLab.pdf
Rob
Rob,
This is not what well documented looks like. Sorry.
The slide show is mostly bling bling. The RT60 results are apparently very good - maybe too good to be true? After all they only show spot tests with lines drawn between a few data points
The second bit is ok, but illuminates not much more than some construction details (lacking in the .pdf, iirc) and Olive's opinions... which is fine, but not hard data by which one could REPLICATE the tests.
The pdf is interesting as a design target document, but does not show us anything specific about the actual room.
Look, I assume the ROOM is probably good.
I am talking about the test conditions in totality, not just for Toole, but for most of these published 'tests' - I just do not see any way that there is a control, nor a baseline standard for comparision presented. Too many assumptions are made - like about the signal path for example. Also, I do not typically see even simple things like THD and IM distortions presented on any bit of gear! We should assume that none of the speakers in the test had any damaged drivers? No mis-aligned voice coils? No?? How about the amplifier(s)?? Blameless, no doubt. All amps do sound the same, right?
So, now if there WAS an annoying artifact from the amplifier used in the test, and out of 10 speakers ONLY one revealed that artifact accurately would then THAT speaker be rated LOW or HIGH?? How would the people running the test KNOW??
I say that Toole and others are testing for rather gross effects, which is fine, and necessary - but that one must discern that this is what they are doing.
_-_-bear
PS. there was a chart of on and off axis response that was just too darn good to be believed - I have never ever seen such smooth off-axis response, I do not believe - and looking at the pic of the speaker under test, I am baffled and amazed. Assuming I got this relationship correct (fast read folks, not much time today for this stuff...)
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I'd disagree somewhat. It makes comparisons among speakers designed for the test conditions valid. To move away from ESLs for the purpose of illustration, if a speaker is designed to go against a wall, it wouldn't do well in that test- not because the speaker doesn't perform well, but because it doesn't perform well used in a different manner than that for which it's designed.
Hello Bear
And our listening rooms are better documented than this?
Mine isn't.
But I don't publish tests alleged to be unimpeachably scientific??
You are just grasping for straws with that arguement. All speakers get tested under identicle test conditions. That's what make the comparisons valid.
Rob
No straws needed.
I stand by my arguments - these tests are fine for what they are, but they are not dispositive of much if anything.
The comparisons are valid ONLY for the test conditions, as run. NOT for your home. IF they are useful for any other place other than the test room and time, that is unclear.
_-_-bear
Hello Sy
Well obviously a pair of Alison 1's would fit that category. That said the majority of speakers are not designed to have a specific placement criteria as part of the design for them to work as designed.
That was a mouthful. There will always be exceptions for almost anything. That doesn't invalidate the fact that 95% or more of speaker designs don't fit that criteria so the test should be valid for the vast mojority.
Rob
Hello Bear
I agree with the first part. About being useful in your home. I don't agree I know a couple of people who are Synthesis dealers that have been in the room and participated in the testing. Their views are is that it was usefull and were really surprised by the results. Just curious have you looked at Tooles book?? If you haven't it's worth a peek.
Rob
Let's all get a grip.
Sure, there lots of little ways ESLs could be disadvantaged or advantaged and likewise for each other speaker too. Toole and Olive work carefully and, allowing for their affiliation with Cosmic Audio Corp, seem pretty professional and not inclined to simple bias, as far as I can tell.
Maybe that's a bit optimistic but "innocent until proven guilty" I say.
Sure, there lots of little ways ESLs could be disadvantaged or advantaged and likewise for each other speaker too. Toole and Olive work carefully and, allowing for their affiliation with Cosmic Audio Corp, seem pretty professional and not inclined to simple bias, as far as I can tell.
Maybe that's a bit optimistic but "innocent until proven guilty" I say.
Bear> As long as one is using humans when evaluating something subjective taste will always be an issue, however this realy was a sidenote on my part.
The real issue is like you said in how it's done.
I can't say I'd put any large amount of credibility to the test.
Sure it looks scienific on the surface but in reality it could be as biased as one would like.
The directionalty and acoustical demands on the room made by ESL's are quite different from a regular dynamic speaker.
To make any kind of judgement on who's the "more popular" one would have to give each speaker a purpose built room for that kind of speaker. However, in doing so everything is not equal and one could argue that the test is not valid in any way.
One would also need to use only one listening position, the sweet spot. Depending on who you ask this could be either good or bad.
So, I'd say it's kind of hard to compare the types in a way that's scientifically bulletproof.
The real issue is like you said in how it's done.
I can't say I'd put any large amount of credibility to the test.
Sure it looks scienific on the surface but in reality it could be as biased as one would like.
The directionalty and acoustical demands on the room made by ESL's are quite different from a regular dynamic speaker.
To make any kind of judgement on who's the "more popular" one would have to give each speaker a purpose built room for that kind of speaker. However, in doing so everything is not equal and one could argue that the test is not valid in any way.
One would also need to use only one listening position, the sweet spot. Depending on who you ask this could be either good or bad.
So, I'd say it's kind of hard to compare the types in a way that's scientifically bulletproof.
I have to say Amen to that! At least on Quad ESLs I've heard different amps sound vastly different. So different that I hardly recognized the test track. And have heard some that sound pretty much alike.
No idea if the power amp was having a hard time in this test, but that's one of the first things I'd look at.
I have read a fair amount of Toole's work.
It's fine. But my point is that I wouldn't "bet the bank" based solely upon what he has published.
I think that speaker to speaker comparisons are a useful thing to attempt - my problem comes in that I can't discern much about the test conditions (gear, their measurements, the room, it's measurements or even the speaker's measurements) from the published information. We've discussed a fair number of variables in this thread that are not "nailed down"... that is the point.
I don't think that "scientifically bulletproof" is the criterion that needs to be looked at, I think it is replicability.
_-_-bear
It's fine. But my point is that I wouldn't "bet the bank" based solely upon what he has published.
I think that speaker to speaker comparisons are a useful thing to attempt - my problem comes in that I can't discern much about the test conditions (gear, their measurements, the room, it's measurements or even the speaker's measurements) from the published information. We've discussed a fair number of variables in this thread that are not "nailed down"... that is the point.
I don't think that "scientifically bulletproof" is the criterion that needs to be looked at, I think it is replicability.
_-_-bear
who wants to trade in your speakers for these?
Submitted for your approval, and I believe identified by Olive in his blog as the top speaker in that test...
http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Prim...-20&link_code=btl&camp=213689&creative=392969
Ya gonna go for it??
_-_-bear
Submitted for your approval, and I believe identified by Olive in his blog as the top speaker in that test...
http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Prim...-20&link_code=btl&camp=213689&creative=392969
Ya gonna go for it??
_-_-bear
Yes, all in good fun.
Maybe nobody would agree with me on this, but I would say if you convened a panel of judges and they agreed that little Infinity is really good, then that really, really, ought to be definitive. How can you argue with that?
But the deeper question is the same as Toole asks: what physical measurements DO reveal the experience of listening to that speaker? If you can't answer that, then speaker design is an art not a science and progress is a problem.
Maybe nobody would agree with me on this, but I would say if you convened a panel of judges and they agreed that little Infinity is really good, then that really, really, ought to be definitive. How can you argue with that?
But the deeper question is the same as Toole asks: what physical measurements DO reveal the experience of listening to that speaker? If you can't answer that, then speaker design is an art not a science and progress is a problem.
Why do you ask? A rhetorical question?
What I find interesting is that so many find it so good. Why? Did they have junk speakers before, or are they deaf? Did they have low expectations? Or is this cheap little speaker doing something that most people like? If so, what is that "something"?
Are we still on topic?
What I find interesting is that so many find it so good. Why? Did they have junk speakers before, or are they deaf? Did they have low expectations? Or is this cheap little speaker doing something that most people like? If so, what is that "something"?
Are we still on topic?
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