Sorry folks, this got a little longer than I intended, but the heater issue is something riddled with myths and ambiguity.
We all want our precious tubes to last forever, and I know this matter of b+ on cold tubes is filled with different 'facts'.
This is regarding indirectly heated tubes, not filament tubes.
I used to include a standby switch on all my tube gear so I could apply the b+ after the tubes were warmed up. Sometimes I got fancy and included a time delayed relay to do the job. For more than 10 years of building amps I'd been petrified of applying high tension to cold tubes.
Last year there was a discussion regarding the standby switch and I was proven wrong!!! Can u believe it!
Basically I was given a link to the Wizard:
How to design valve guitar amplifiers
...read the article on standby switches. It makes sense that the standby switch enables lower value caps to be used. I've actually used capacitors under-rated the no-load voltage and had to be sure the circuit was loading the psu before applying power. In the old days every penny counted, and those mass produced guitar amps had to save where they could.
After reading the article, I started searching the books for proof that I was right and they were wrong...all those downloads from Pete Millet,
Technical books online
I spent hours and hours reading various books and manuals, and I finally realized I had been wrong.
There is no harm done when applying high voltage to cold tubes!!!
There is a voltage level where it starts to get dubious, but that's a much higher voltage than 90% of us ever go to. (I can't remember the voltage).
So can we all find the right answer to this and decide on it once and for all? Please contribute...
Btw, indirectly heated cathodes are heated by the 'heater', not 'filament'. Directly heated tubes have 'filaments' (which is the cathode as well).
Secondary:
I ended up reading 'Getting the Most Out of Vacuum Tubes' and basically concluded that the only thing that can stress the tubes is the inrush on cold heaters. The potential damage is minor to most tubes; the inrush is relatively harmless and only of interested to those who want to cover every corner. I did an experiment, and on some 6922s I got peak (cold) currents of about 1amp! Obviously with many tubes in parallel this can seem alarming, but I think the internal resistance of most heater supplies limits this to some extent. But including a current limiting function on the heaters can be beneficial.
Third:
indirectly heated tubes cannot bleed noise to the cathode and circuit if the heater potential is above the cathode potential. This is why it is better to bias the heater to a positive voltage than to gnd the heater. Center tapped heater windings is a take off from the filament days.
Biasing the heater to 20-60volts works wonders on any heater induced noise issues, even on Phono preamps. I use this trick on my gutar amps with more than 80dB gain, and it is just as noise free as DC regulated heaters.
I may be rambling on here, but I find it interesting, and seeing some posts here tells me I shouldn't be the only one.
Please feed back what you know/think/wish/want...cheers😉
We all want our precious tubes to last forever, and I know this matter of b+ on cold tubes is filled with different 'facts'.
This is regarding indirectly heated tubes, not filament tubes.
I used to include a standby switch on all my tube gear so I could apply the b+ after the tubes were warmed up. Sometimes I got fancy and included a time delayed relay to do the job. For more than 10 years of building amps I'd been petrified of applying high tension to cold tubes.
Last year there was a discussion regarding the standby switch and I was proven wrong!!! Can u believe it!
Basically I was given a link to the Wizard:
How to design valve guitar amplifiers
...read the article on standby switches. It makes sense that the standby switch enables lower value caps to be used. I've actually used capacitors under-rated the no-load voltage and had to be sure the circuit was loading the psu before applying power. In the old days every penny counted, and those mass produced guitar amps had to save where they could.
After reading the article, I started searching the books for proof that I was right and they were wrong...all those downloads from Pete Millet,
Technical books online
I spent hours and hours reading various books and manuals, and I finally realized I had been wrong.
There is no harm done when applying high voltage to cold tubes!!!
There is a voltage level where it starts to get dubious, but that's a much higher voltage than 90% of us ever go to. (I can't remember the voltage).
So can we all find the right answer to this and decide on it once and for all? Please contribute...
Btw, indirectly heated cathodes are heated by the 'heater', not 'filament'. Directly heated tubes have 'filaments' (which is the cathode as well).
Secondary:
I ended up reading 'Getting the Most Out of Vacuum Tubes' and basically concluded that the only thing that can stress the tubes is the inrush on cold heaters. The potential damage is minor to most tubes; the inrush is relatively harmless and only of interested to those who want to cover every corner. I did an experiment, and on some 6922s I got peak (cold) currents of about 1amp! Obviously with many tubes in parallel this can seem alarming, but I think the internal resistance of most heater supplies limits this to some extent. But including a current limiting function on the heaters can be beneficial.
Third:
indirectly heated tubes cannot bleed noise to the cathode and circuit if the heater potential is above the cathode potential. This is why it is better to bias the heater to a positive voltage than to gnd the heater. Center tapped heater windings is a take off from the filament days.
Biasing the heater to 20-60volts works wonders on any heater induced noise issues, even on Phono preamps. I use this trick on my gutar amps with more than 80dB gain, and it is just as noise free as DC regulated heaters.
I may be rambling on here, but I find it interesting, and seeing some posts here tells me I shouldn't be the only one.
Please feed back what you know/think/wish/want...cheers😉
Congratulations! 😉
One more woke up from propaganda-induced dreams. 😀
If you examine datasheets carefully they specify max voltages for hot tubes, for cut-off tubes with high negative bias, and for cold tubes. Max voltage for cold tubes is the highest one. It is given bor the case when the equipment is switched on, and rectified voltage is on it's maximum because no current is drawn yet by cold tubes.
Last edited:
At 550V (or thereabout) and above I'd be concerned with cathode stripping. For most tube work I consider it to be a non-issue.
I only started to understad cathode stripping and cathode poisoning after reading this paper by Morgan Jones.
Baking valves by Morgan Jones (pdf file hosted by Vacuumstate)
It explains the nature of the electrons, ions, and gas molecules within a tube.
After I started to understand, why should I ever want to install a standby switch or delayed B+.
--
Baking valves by Morgan Jones (pdf file hosted by Vacuumstate)
It explains the nature of the electrons, ions, and gas molecules within a tube.
After I started to understand, why should I ever want to install a standby switch or delayed B+.
--
Last edited:
800V B+ on cold GU-50 tubes does not bother me at all. Abrupt B+ switch on like in case of time delay switches is more harmful because of currents that charging coupling caps create grid current spikes that create anode current spikes.
However, magnetrons in radar stations is completely different issue... When they start conducting due to uneven emission from surface of cathode some spots on it start heating faster, that heats them even higher, and so on.
Density of cathode current matters.
Wowww, I *hope* that's not actually written by Mr Jones, at least not directly. I have seen few terribly formatted documents, and I am sad to say, this is one of them! Headings are not indicated; Omega seems to have been replaced with Sigma; the font is too small or the column too wide, and I'm willing to bet it was typed in MS Word using only default settings.
I wonder if you know of a better written article? I would like to read it, but these things are just too distracting.
Tim
This looks like a poor pdf conversion. On my computer, it appears fine except for the omegas and mus. The photo of the ruined CV1988 was heartbreaking, but I can't blame Morgan's software for that.
I don't think he uses Microsoft Word- far too modern. A quill is more his speed.
I don't think he uses Microsoft Word- far too modern. A quill is more his speed.
He normally uses Word Perfect, and it took years for me to get anything out of him that I could even put up on a screen. I suspect what he finally sent was the WP original converted (badly?) to MSW. Which I then converted to PDF in Mac OSX.
I've done my best, if it offends anyone, too bad - you are invited to do better. But whatever, the data is correct and I consider, very valuable.
Regards, Allen
Other than the ∑ instead of Ω it's perfectly fine. It's a slight keyboard error that can be easily overlooked.
John
John
It does not matter did MJ write that article, or somebody else. The article is about gas and getter. B+ delay myth is completely different story, totally irrelevant to this one. It is obvious that if to heat up a getter flash gas will be absorbed by it, but if to heat up cathode gas will be absorbed by cathode.
Seems perfectly legible to me, and I think I'm picky. Thanks for posting it.
So..... no worry about B+ on a cold tube?
So..... no worry about B+ on a cold tube?
I'd agree- except for the two Greek letter oddities, it looks fine. I never worry about moderate voltages (i.e., <1kV or the Vbo(max), whichever is smaller), and I've never had an issue with tube life.
@Wavebourn, that's definitely Morgan's work. I even have a couple of the D3a that he tested.
@Wavebourn, that's definitely Morgan's work. I even have a couple of the D3a that he tested.
I thought it was a good read, and the formatting ok. Probably an artifact of conversion from Word Perfect if that is what he uses. I previously used Ami Pro and when I converted to word about 12 yrs ago had to convert all of my documents to word which did not go well at all.. 😀
While cleaning out some old stuff from a dark corner of the warehouse I discovered a whole bunch of my old projects including some of my old solid state amps from 1968 to about 1980. I also found an audio cassete containing VisiCalc. I don't even remember what computer it ran on, TRS-80, SWTPC 6800 ?
- Status
- Not open for further replies.