Yep, condensers are quite prone to sibilance due to the relatively high tension of the membrane which pushes the resonance right up into the sibilance region.
Ribbons are not under such high tension and the resonance is in the region of 200Hz or below.
Ribbons are not under such high tension and the resonance is in the region of 200Hz or below.
Sibilance... or not
Sounds like some of those legacy alledgedly overly sibilant ribbon mics must have been used with deficient interconnects somewhere else in the system, eh??😉 Or maybe the valves used in that era were rich in euphonic colorations??
Sounds like some of those legacy alledgedly overly sibilant ribbon mics must have been used with deficient interconnects somewhere else in the system, eh??😉 Or maybe the valves used in that era were rich in euphonic colorations??
Or maybe those so-called valve euphonic colorations more accurately captured the bloom and richness of live music than today's sterile and lifeless solid state does? 😉
The reasoning is the 5-10 dB treble peaks in real DX77 data are inaudible because some guys listening to a modern copy, one they repeatedly describe as loose at the bottom, don't mention them? Though they do call it 'sparkly'?
Regardless, it remains that microphones used to record many of the greatest early classical recordings had high frequency emphasis, whether it was the DX 77, the U-47 condensor used by Bob Fine for Mercury (as per SY), or other. To my ears it typically results in a bright presentation that doesn't match today's best.
The RIAA curve didn't get adopted until 1955, before that it was close to pot luck on the eq used.
RCA did make a low cost ribbon mic that I have been told was the same as the more expensive version except they added a response dulling inductor. The tweak of the day would buy the cheapie and remove the inductor.
Oh yeah the XLR connector was adopted as the standard audio connector because the big show of the day had a rider requiring a professional audio system using them, along with the RCA Ribbon mics.
Anyone care to guess who was big enough to get their way?
Any progress on the DBT?
Markus, did you get your link? If so, what's your thoughts?
Thanks,
Dan
Markus, did you get your link? If so, what's your thoughts?
Thanks,
Dan
Maybe people will chime in tomorrow w/ progress. If not, I'm willing to participate in one anytime in the SF Bay area.
Dan
Dan
A LOONNNGGGG Upcoming DBT Update
Hi Dan,
Here's an update on the DBT. I'm not really contributing here anymore after it started becoming hostile. This is what I told SY in an email yesterday...
I can tell you all these last 6 to 8 weeks was a time of a lot of change in my audio system. Initially I removed the Fostex Fe206ES-Rs from the Sachikos and replaced them with the Fostex Fe208ES-Rs! The sonic differences between these two Fostex drivers are so vast it caused me to run a gamut of emotions from extreme disappointment initially, to revelation as I began to realize what was actually happening sonically, to now being estatically happy! These are some bitching drivers my friends, but they're not a "full-range" driver by any stretch of the imagination.
The FE208ES-R drivers now installed in the Sachiko cabinets are wide-range, whizzerless drivers. They are completely different sonically from what one typically hears when using Fostex's "full-range" whizzered drivers. I have no way that I can verify this, but from what I'm hearing I'd say the FE208ES-R in the Sachiko cabinets are good for 35Hz to 10KHz. This deficiency in their high-end response led to the addition of a pair of large dipole Heils that were crossed in ---{best guesstimate}--- at approx 10KHz on up. I'm still playing with the crossover, but that said, I'm comfortable using it "as-is' "if" the need be. A couple people said they believe the treble should be attenuated about 2-3dB. The vast majority of the time I think it sounds fine "as-is" but every now and again I think these others might perhaps be right!?!? I wished I had access to the means of testing the Sachiko/FE208ES-R/Heil frequency response.
Adding the Heil's as basically supertweeters changed everything! Not only did I get the added extention of highs I wanted, but one of the most notable changes was in the soundstage or speaker's presentation. This became deeper & wider ---{I realize this soundstage size could be added electronically by the recording engineer, but whether this effect is real or an added artifact it's now very apparent, easily delineated and sometimes even the "venue" of the recording is perceived}--- this is accompanied with a much better sense of the different individual musician's placement within that given space!
Strangely enough adding the supertweeters even caused the bass to became tighter, with more perceived slam and attack. From lowest bass to highest treble everything gelled. Inner resolution is such that now you can easily follow the softest notes even while a drummer is banging away or a guitar is whailing. I don't mean to go on like this but hopefully you can get a sense my enthusiasm for what I'm now hearing. Perhaps the strangest thing is you can leave the room and go sit at the dinning room table ---{approx 25ft away}---- and the tonality of the sound won't change. In fact all you really lose is the speaker's soundtage! Even stranger is actually I sometimes enjoy sitting there in the dining room because it sounds more like a live musical event would. By this I mean I don't really notice any soundstaging at live musical events. So siting at the dining room table more closely emulates thatsound. At least IMHO it does.
Finally the Mike Rispoli GEN VII speaker wires I've used for as long as I can remember were replaced by a pair of Stealth Audio's top-of-the-line Dream speaker wires. I'm quite sure I've got a good handle on the system's sound as a whole now. Which leaves me to just getting someone over to test me by doing a couple of rounds of flipping the coin X times, a true DBT! So yes we're close my friends, yes very close. I really believe it looks good for May. I hope you believe me when I tell you I'm not intionally procrastinating and have every intention of keeping my world. It's just that, well truth be told and as I told SY, every change I described above raised the system's performance up a significant notch and when I was finally completed I became so wrapped up into just listening, estatically, eyes closed, mesmerized by what I was hearing. I have to keep asking myself "Is this really your stereo?" or "Are you sure this isn't a dream?" To be really honest with you all I simply didn't want to take the time away from what was, and remains to be, the most pleasurable listening experience I've ever had in my life!
To break away from this and start testing myself? Heck no! That felt too much like work and what I was doing was just too enjoyable to stop doing! You'd have a had a better chance of asking me to get up and do dishes mid-stroke while I was making love to my wife, than tear me away from what I was hearing!!! That's especially when I consider that no one will probably believe what happens ---{either way}--- except SY, myself and however else may be present. However no matter what others say I'm ready to test myself and as soon as I get a friend to come over for a couple of rounds of relaxed DBTs. So with a friends help, I'll soon be ready for these DBTs. Like Polonius said in Hamlet; "To thine own self be true." So in the end I really only need to prove this to myself, but I have to admit I'd like it to be in front of some others especially disbelievers.
The way my system sounds right now ---{and yes I know the Heil's crosssover still may need some work to get it just right}---- I'm very content with what I'm hearing and I'm quite familiar ---{at last}--- once gain with what I'm hearing as a system. No longer am I noticing the sound of new individual pieces that have been added! So "hopefully" I can get someone over quick to test me with the type of DBT SY will be running ---{a DBT where the same IC can be played 3, 4, 5 or even 6X in a row}---- once that done it's a go! So I'll end this long-winded update by stating once again "It still looks good for May." Now the doubting Thomas' will hopefully stop fretting.
I'm really looking forward to meeting SY. To everyone else here I suggest you go listen to some tunes, soon as you can. I've been doing that while I've been typing this update for these pass 20 mins. I had to keep getting up, because certain songs almost demand to be listened to in the "Sweet Spot" Well just as I'm ending this update so is the CD "Make Someone Happy" by Sophie Milman almost ending. If you like female jazz singers you have to listen to this CD by Sophie. Her 1st CD is also very good but I've been disappointed by here 3rd CD. Well now you all know why the DBT hasn't taken place as of yet and that it is still a go for May, as it originally was supposed to be. With that this update is over and I'm gone again...
Tom Scata (thetubeguy1954)
=========================================================
"The man that hath no music in himself nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils."
- William Shakespeare
Hi Dan,
Here's an update on the DBT. I'm not really contributing here anymore after it started becoming hostile. This is what I told SY in an email yesterday...
I can tell you all these last 6 to 8 weeks was a time of a lot of change in my audio system. Initially I removed the Fostex Fe206ES-Rs from the Sachikos and replaced them with the Fostex Fe208ES-Rs! The sonic differences between these two Fostex drivers are so vast it caused me to run a gamut of emotions from extreme disappointment initially, to revelation as I began to realize what was actually happening sonically, to now being estatically happy! These are some bitching drivers my friends, but they're not a "full-range" driver by any stretch of the imagination.
The FE208ES-R drivers now installed in the Sachiko cabinets are wide-range, whizzerless drivers. They are completely different sonically from what one typically hears when using Fostex's "full-range" whizzered drivers. I have no way that I can verify this, but from what I'm hearing I'd say the FE208ES-R in the Sachiko cabinets are good for 35Hz to 10KHz. This deficiency in their high-end response led to the addition of a pair of large dipole Heils that were crossed in ---{best guesstimate}--- at approx 10KHz on up. I'm still playing with the crossover, but that said, I'm comfortable using it "as-is' "if" the need be. A couple people said they believe the treble should be attenuated about 2-3dB. The vast majority of the time I think it sounds fine "as-is" but every now and again I think these others might perhaps be right!?!? I wished I had access to the means of testing the Sachiko/FE208ES-R/Heil frequency response.
Adding the Heil's as basically supertweeters changed everything! Not only did I get the added extention of highs I wanted, but one of the most notable changes was in the soundstage or speaker's presentation. This became deeper & wider ---{I realize this soundstage size could be added electronically by the recording engineer, but whether this effect is real or an added artifact it's now very apparent, easily delineated and sometimes even the "venue" of the recording is perceived}--- this is accompanied with a much better sense of the different individual musician's placement within that given space!
Strangely enough adding the supertweeters even caused the bass to became tighter, with more perceived slam and attack. From lowest bass to highest treble everything gelled. Inner resolution is such that now you can easily follow the softest notes even while a drummer is banging away or a guitar is whailing. I don't mean to go on like this but hopefully you can get a sense my enthusiasm for what I'm now hearing. Perhaps the strangest thing is you can leave the room and go sit at the dinning room table ---{approx 25ft away}---- and the tonality of the sound won't change. In fact all you really lose is the speaker's soundtage! Even stranger is actually I sometimes enjoy sitting there in the dining room because it sounds more like a live musical event would. By this I mean I don't really notice any soundstaging at live musical events. So siting at the dining room table more closely emulates thatsound. At least IMHO it does.
Finally the Mike Rispoli GEN VII speaker wires I've used for as long as I can remember were replaced by a pair of Stealth Audio's top-of-the-line Dream speaker wires. I'm quite sure I've got a good handle on the system's sound as a whole now. Which leaves me to just getting someone over to test me by doing a couple of rounds of flipping the coin X times, a true DBT! So yes we're close my friends, yes very close. I really believe it looks good for May. I hope you believe me when I tell you I'm not intionally procrastinating and have every intention of keeping my world. It's just that, well truth be told and as I told SY, every change I described above raised the system's performance up a significant notch and when I was finally completed I became so wrapped up into just listening, estatically, eyes closed, mesmerized by what I was hearing. I have to keep asking myself "Is this really your stereo?" or "Are you sure this isn't a dream?" To be really honest with you all I simply didn't want to take the time away from what was, and remains to be, the most pleasurable listening experience I've ever had in my life!
To break away from this and start testing myself? Heck no! That felt too much like work and what I was doing was just too enjoyable to stop doing! You'd have a had a better chance of asking me to get up and do dishes mid-stroke while I was making love to my wife, than tear me away from what I was hearing!!! That's especially when I consider that no one will probably believe what happens ---{either way}--- except SY, myself and however else may be present. However no matter what others say I'm ready to test myself and as soon as I get a friend to come over for a couple of rounds of relaxed DBTs. So with a friends help, I'll soon be ready for these DBTs. Like Polonius said in Hamlet; "To thine own self be true." So in the end I really only need to prove this to myself, but I have to admit I'd like it to be in front of some others especially disbelievers.
The way my system sounds right now ---{and yes I know the Heil's crosssover still may need some work to get it just right}---- I'm very content with what I'm hearing and I'm quite familiar ---{at last}--- once gain with what I'm hearing as a system. No longer am I noticing the sound of new individual pieces that have been added! So "hopefully" I can get someone over quick to test me with the type of DBT SY will be running ---{a DBT where the same IC can be played 3, 4, 5 or even 6X in a row}---- once that done it's a go! So I'll end this long-winded update by stating once again "It still looks good for May." Now the doubting Thomas' will hopefully stop fretting.
I'm really looking forward to meeting SY. To everyone else here I suggest you go listen to some tunes, soon as you can. I've been doing that while I've been typing this update for these pass 20 mins. I had to keep getting up, because certain songs almost demand to be listened to in the "Sweet Spot" Well just as I'm ending this update so is the CD "Make Someone Happy" by Sophie Milman almost ending. If you like female jazz singers you have to listen to this CD by Sophie. Her 1st CD is also very good but I've been disappointed by here 3rd CD. Well now you all know why the DBT hasn't taken place as of yet and that it is still a go for May, as it originally was supposed to be. With that this update is over and I'm gone again...
Tom Scata (thetubeguy1954)
=========================================================
"The man that hath no music in himself nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils."
- William Shakespeare
hey Tom! Your enthusiasm has me almost hoping you CAN identify the differences!
Classic write up there my friend - and within reason take your time preparing since you are the one stepping up to the plate.
Regards
Classic write up there my friend - and within reason take your time preparing since you are the one stepping up to the plate.
Regards
I've been listening to a set of 5meter interconnects of RG6U sold in shops as video cable. The results seem quite fantastic. Now when I switch the power cord polarity differences can be heard.🙂
George - I hope that you aren't serious! I thought that you might have been coming around. Sounds like a relapse.
I've been trying to figure out what's going on.
After I listened to the tutorials on grounding and balancing by Bill Whitlock, I started out just taking an old RG58U cable (used in aircraft wiring) that was laying around, and swapped one channel of MIT330 (from back in the 80s, and still my reference cables after numerous comparisons) out. I noticed an increase in detail, background timbre, and a clearer bass. I was so interested in the results that I went out and bought an RG6U cable (quite cheap) which I made into 5 meter interconnects, swapping one channel out at a time listening to each swap for a few nights at very low levels so that it would not be heard from other rooms. So I was quite satisfied with this setup because it seemed to project a more feeling of "I am there" even at such low levels.
Now, I was also trying to figure out how amp internal grounding effected performance, I swapped the polarity of power cables (because on power strip seemed to be pluged in with the live and return legs in the wrong socket), and suddenly, things did not sound right. The sound was smooth, but the detail and the background timbre was gone. So when I swapped the polarity back, the detail and timbre was back. I later measured the connections of that power strip, to my surprise, they were connected incorrectly, so what seemed to be a wrong polarity connection was actually the correct connection.
After I listened to the tutorials on grounding and balancing by Bill Whitlock, I started out just taking an old RG58U cable (used in aircraft wiring) that was laying around, and swapped one channel of MIT330 (from back in the 80s, and still my reference cables after numerous comparisons) out. I noticed an increase in detail, background timbre, and a clearer bass. I was so interested in the results that I went out and bought an RG6U cable (quite cheap) which I made into 5 meter interconnects, swapping one channel out at a time listening to each swap for a few nights at very low levels so that it would not be heard from other rooms. So I was quite satisfied with this setup because it seemed to project a more feeling of "I am there" even at such low levels.
Now, I was also trying to figure out how amp internal grounding effected performance, I swapped the polarity of power cables (because on power strip seemed to be pluged in with the live and return legs in the wrong socket), and suddenly, things did not sound right. The sound was smooth, but the detail and the background timbre was gone. So when I swapped the polarity back, the detail and timbre was back. I later measured the connections of that power strip, to my surprise, they were connected incorrectly, so what seemed to be a wrong polarity connection was actually the correct connection.
Wow! Enlightening! Not so much for what you discovered as for the depth of your faith in your hearing when its well known that such things are easily manipulated.
I have always seriously doubted any initial reactions that I might have about "changes" in audio gear. I have found that in almost every case the differences somehow seem to go away over time and I am forced to conclude that nothing ever really did change. Now I simply assume that nothing has changed, and in a very few instances, after some long period of time, I find that I can no longer stick to this assumption - something must really have changed. This later technique saves me from making dumb claims about nothing.
I have always seriously doubted any initial reactions that I might have about "changes" in audio gear. I have found that in almost every case the differences somehow seem to go away over time and I am forced to conclude that nothing ever really did change. Now I simply assume that nothing has changed, and in a very few instances, after some long period of time, I find that I can no longer stick to this assumption - something must really have changed. This later technique saves me from making dumb claims about nothing.
From over 20 years ago, someone did advice a way to determine the better sounding power cable polarity using a multi-meter. I might have posted it in this thread a while back. From what I vaguely remember, it probably was a measurement to determine the polarity that causes least current flow through the ground between the devices.
No, it is measuring the residual voltage ( a few mV of AC) between chassis and true mains ground. This only applies to 2 pin power connectors and, therefore, equipments which do not need a mains earth.
Reversing the mains polarity changes the amount of leakage current (through transformer etc) and hence voltage drop.
This may or may not change the sound. It certainly has nothing to do with the cable construction, but may look like it if one doesn't understand electricity.
From reading AES tutorials on grounding and balancing by Bill Whitlock, current through the ground will effect performance differently with different interconnect stucture, this is the main reason why I decided to go for the RG6U cable. Of course I will have to listen for a certain period of time and then switch back to see whether I will still think the RG6U cable is better or not. Not all devices are 3 pin power cables, so something is bound to happen.
Many things are not audible due to speaker performance as a dominating factor. I have to confess that lots of things where not audible to me until the speaker CSD decayed fast. Since the issue if cables is so complicated, it is no wonder that there is a diversity of optinions.
Many things are not audible due to speaker performance as a dominating factor. I have to confess that lots of things where not audible to me until the speaker CSD decayed fast. Since the issue if cables is so complicated, it is no wonder that there is a diversity of optinions.
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The interconnect ground is effectively in parallel with the power cord grounds. Normally the latter star back to a single circuit/breaker outlet, explaining why the 'miles of wire to the power station' are irrelevant and where the potential for power cord interaction arises.
Mr. Whitlock indeed addresses the connection structures between various grounds and signal lines. A lot can be learned from his explanations. He does NOT discuss type of cable.
If you think his AES papers have anything to do with using RG6U or other cable, you have misread it grandiosly.
jd
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