Sure, I'll just add that to the list of parts I have to change.😡
Bad encoder, bad IR receiver, what's next?
No thanks.
Not telling the truth is impolite 😉
In a private message you have complained that I can't tell you exactly where the problem is. My response was that you can send in the board for service (free of course). Without the board here diagnosing the problem is difficult. All I can do is suggest parts to change.
Best regards,
Mikkel C. Simonsen
Here is a part of that private message. It wasn't until I complained to you about addressing my problem that you made the offer, at a later time.
So, let's tell the whole truth.
The attenuator board is a good idea that has implementation problems, I don't know if that's due to bad parts quality or selection or something else.
Sure, I'll just add that to the list of parts I have to change.😡
Bad encoder, bad IR receiver, what's next?
No thanks.
don't worry pal, I have changed all relays and with no good results 🙁
I offered to fix your board in a private message sent about 10 hours before you wrote that I wouldn't help you...
And I made the offer before you bought anything:
But if you don't want help, I can't help you.
Best regards,
Mikkel C. Simonsen
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I DO expect things to work properly
Hags,
I think you are duely upset the attenuator having defective parts, but if Mikkel is willing to replace the parts free, you should give him the chance if you can live with the "clicks".
Ron
Hags,
I think you are duely upset the attenuator having defective parts, but if Mikkel is willing to replace the parts free, you should give him the chance if you can live with the "clicks".
Ron
Instead of bashing each other, maybe looking for solutions is a somewhat better idea? Mikkel sells a DIY audio kit, the schematic is available, I just don't see why you must blame him if you for instance cannot reach 100% attenuation. That has nothing to do with his design, but so much more with the implementation (that is sort of the DIY part). Furthermore, it is a well known fact that relais attenuators can generate clicking noises in some implementations. Just be glad Mikkel is putting a lot of time in helping people solve their problems, including this one. Spitting bile is in no way going to help your situation.
If you search around somewhat, it seems that in other implementations (for instance that of Jos van Eijndhoven's attenuator), the popping noise can be reduced to almost zero, by carefull timing of the relais switching (switching one relay of before the switching the next). But the popping noise is still inherent to relais based attenuators and seem to remain in certain situations.
In another thread on PinkFish, I found something about a solution using decoupling caps in combination with a specific switching order:
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=72005
Maybe Mikkel could look into these possible solutions.
Oh and Mikkel: Send you an email with some last questions before we (Roel en Maarten) can place the order, awaiting your reply.
If you search around somewhat, it seems that in other implementations (for instance that of Jos van Eijndhoven's attenuator), the popping noise can be reduced to almost zero, by carefull timing of the relais switching (switching one relay of before the switching the next). But the popping noise is still inherent to relais based attenuators and seem to remain in certain situations.
In another thread on PinkFish, I found something about a solution using decoupling caps in combination with a specific switching order:
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=72005
Maybe Mikkel could look into these possible solutions.
Oh and Mikkel: Send you an email with some last questions before we (Roel en Maarten) can place the order, awaiting your reply.
So after paying for this product I should spend more money to get it to work without clicks, pops and with maximum attenuation?
I keep hearing this, are you telling me that the Levinsons, Krells, Pass Labs etc. of the world sell products that click and pop? I've listened to a few of those designs and have not heard any such nonsense.
I certainly wish he had prior to offering a kit that needed them.
Why we are annoying Mikkel about click and cannot reach 100% attenuation? Becouse WE PAYED FOR THAT KIT!
May I ask you if you have ever seen in your diy career an attenuator that can not reach 100% muting? If yes, please, give me the link, I wanna buy it.
😀
We did, earlier in this thread. You would have known that if you had read the previous posts. Not trying to be rude, just that we HAVE tried different things and HAVE emailed back and forth with Mikkel, he HAS tried to help us with the kit issues. I like Mikkel, he has always been a good guy to me.
Had I been expecting "clicks" I would NOT have purchased this kit. No mention of "clicks" even being a possibility in the documentation.
Thank you for the link to Pinkfish.
Expect you kit to "click" when you use it and you will be happy.
Ron
P.S. I rebuilt my board because I thought I had done something wrong. Nope, not this time.
P.S.S. The remote function work well as does the display, reducing the input resistor below 60K gave me No music at -63dB, but the steps we out of sink. ie: -32 was louder than -28. My input resistor is now 100K.
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Guys, I understand the kit did not meet your expectations, and I know it's a bummer when something doesn't work as you expect it to. But this type of circuit behaves differently under different circumstances. In some instances it appears to be very sensitive to parasitic capacitance, as with you. As I understand from previous posts, Mikkel has not encountered this problem like this before.
On his website, he never promises 100% attenuation or no clicks, because in his applications this clearly wasn't an issue, as for many other people. He promises 64 dB of attenuation, or more if you use larger steps. With this type of circuit, 100% attenuation can only be reached by full muting (relay). If you want more without a muting relay, it is possible to recalculate your resistors with for example larger steps.
However some of you deem it neccesary to portrait him in a very negative way, even if he is clearly trying to help with the issue. I was just hoping we could constructively search for a solution.
These just aren't comparable situations. Companies like that have dedicated designers working on their products. And there the implementation is very specific, just one situation. Furthermore, you pay thousands of dollars for their equipment because of this. Mikkel has a normal job and on the side he offers people some DIY kits he has designed. I believe you cannot expect Mikkel to plan in advance for every implementation of his kit, which costs a fraction of a professional implementation. That's just deductive fallacy.
But nevermind, onto possible solutions:
This forum describes the same circuit and forum post 71 and further they discuss some possible solutions for the clicks:
-Fixed L-pad after the last relay
-Different timing (possibly with dual coil relais)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/21198-constant-impedance-relay-resistor-logarithmic-attenuator.html
Together with the remarks on Pinkfish, maybe Mikkel could look into the timing of the switching...
Did you recalculate the other resistors as well, or only changed the input resistor?
On his website, he never promises 100% attenuation or no clicks, because in his applications this clearly wasn't an issue, as for many other people. He promises 64 dB of attenuation, or more if you use larger steps. With this type of circuit, 100% attenuation can only be reached by full muting (relay). If you want more without a muting relay, it is possible to recalculate your resistors with for example larger steps.
However some of you deem it neccesary to portrait him in a very negative way, even if he is clearly trying to help with the issue. I was just hoping we could constructively search for a solution.
These just aren't comparable situations. Companies like that have dedicated designers working on their products. And there the implementation is very specific, just one situation. Furthermore, you pay thousands of dollars for their equipment because of this. Mikkel has a normal job and on the side he offers people some DIY kits he has designed. I believe you cannot expect Mikkel to plan in advance for every implementation of his kit, which costs a fraction of a professional implementation. That's just deductive fallacy.
But nevermind, onto possible solutions:
This forum describes the same circuit and forum post 71 and further they discuss some possible solutions for the clicks:
-Fixed L-pad after the last relay
-Different timing (possibly with dual coil relais)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/21198-constant-impedance-relay-resistor-logarithmic-attenuator.html
Together with the remarks on Pinkfish, maybe Mikkel could look into the timing of the switching...
Did you recalculate the other resistors as well, or only changed the input resistor?
As far as I know it's been implemented as a volume control, it is designed as a 64 position attenuator, no?
Mikkel
Please check my PM.
I'm having great difficulties with the Rem-1 boards and I need your help to resolve this,
Thanks
Yair
Please check my PM.
I'm having great difficulties with the Rem-1 boards and I need your help to resolve this,
Thanks
Yair
Mfly,
I've only tried changing out the input resistor, I have a vary limited experience with electronics so I try not to change things I don't understand.
Personally I don't mind not going to 0 volume at -64dB, mine is VERY quiet at that setting, like a whisper. OK by me.
My only complaint is the clicks at volume changes. I guess I should have know about relay devices causing clicks, but I'm an admitted noob.
I have never intended to dis or Bash Mikkel or his equipment / kits. I've only tried to share my experiences with others who may be considering buying this kit and are not aware of the possible clicks.
MIkkel,
Thank you for looking into the issues that we have encountered with your kit.
By building a tube preamp to test your Vol1 kit shows your professionalism and commitment to the quality of your kits. Thank you.
I hope you are able to duplicate our issues in your test lab.
We appreciate that you are checking this forum / thread more often, again showing that you really DO care about customer service. I doubt you make much $$$ (if anything) from your kits, so it's a service to those of us who do not have the talent to design our own.
Don't take any of our post personally Mikkel, I think we all like you.
Thanks,
Ron
I've only tried changing out the input resistor, I have a vary limited experience with electronics so I try not to change things I don't understand.
Personally I don't mind not going to 0 volume at -64dB, mine is VERY quiet at that setting, like a whisper. OK by me.
My only complaint is the clicks at volume changes. I guess I should have know about relay devices causing clicks, but I'm an admitted noob.
I have never intended to dis or Bash Mikkel or his equipment / kits. I've only tried to share my experiences with others who may be considering buying this kit and are not aware of the possible clicks.
MIkkel,
Thank you for looking into the issues that we have encountered with your kit.
By building a tube preamp to test your Vol1 kit shows your professionalism and commitment to the quality of your kits. Thank you.
I hope you are able to duplicate our issues in your test lab.
We appreciate that you are checking this forum / thread more often, again showing that you really DO care about customer service. I doubt you make much $$$ (if anything) from your kits, so it's a service to those of us who do not have the talent to design our own.
Don't take any of our post personally Mikkel, I think we all like you.
Thanks,
Ron
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I do this already in some software versions. The problem is that in this case (attenuator/Aikido), there's noise anyway...
The first option is easy to try, so I will have a look at that. I will also try making an "ultra slow" software version, so I can hopefully hear what relays cause the problem. Another option to try is the order of the different sections, which has been suggested also. But this is a bit difficult to test...
Time is a bit of a problem right now, but I hope I'll have some time during the weekend.
Best regards,
Mikkel C. Simonsen
The RelVol1 and RelVol3 are the same circuit. The RelVol2 and ChipVol1 can do full muting, as they are both series attenuators where the first step is ground.
Best regards,
Mikkel C. Simonsen