steve eddy will be on to you!!
I have to admit that I followed that whole debacle, both were pretty bad in the end, and I feel (too) that the 'blame' for lack of a better word for the test not going ahead lies more with JR than MF.
I do think MF had a few quite reasonable suggestions, that randii refused to allow.
No doubt BOTH were happy at the end of the day🙂
Hmm, MF was willing to take a test, why not curly?
Curly:
Bollocks we haven't. Human hearing is well understood and described scientifically. It is just the self-decieving subjectivists who are desperately trying to argue that there 'more' to human hearing than science knows - but only as a defensive attempt to rationalise their own delusions.
AKA gullibility. By the way, that word is not in your dictionary, obviously.
Ah yes, the old 'argument ad populum' fallacy being wheeled out again.
IOW, if you can't hear differences you're stupid. Nice ad-hominem argument there.
No it was Randi that backed out. Not Michael Fermer! It was because of the demands that Michael asked for as you suggested that were not out of line. Are you offering the same 1M USD that Fermer was offered? I think for that amount of compensation, I might change my mind....
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Regrettably, I only just learned about it. It never got covered in the UK hifi press I believe (certainly not in Hifi News, anyway, which I read). I'm disappointed if Randi fluffed his chance as I know he's serious (I'm still finding out what happened right now...). The problem of course, is that the charlatans just walk away every time, to avoid the conclusions they cannot admit, throwing up the usual duststorm of bogus arguments, fallacious logic, hearsay arguments, ad-hominem attacks, etc... to cover their retreat. Just like our own Curly Woods, in fact, another charlatan who apparently conned customers out of their money for 20 years.
Never mind. Just got pissed again while noticing that this thread (together with "The best sounding audio integrated opamps") is all what this forum is currently about.
jakob2:
It's like those quacks who claim they can get 'free energy' - you don't need to do the same tests, or do experiments with an open mind, etc to see their results. You only need to study the second law of thermodynamics. Once done with that, you know that 'free energy' machines don't work and there isn't really a global government/petro-industry conspiracy to silence the free-energy quacks. Man those guys crack me up. The "one-way magnetic field" stuff is best!! 😀
Plenty of people think cables can't and don't sound different to each other. We can show (not 'insist') that he is wrong because science shows that a) subjective evaluation of small-signal variations is invalidated unless rigourous DBT methodology is applied, b) the performance of human hearing is well understood, c) the physics of cable performance is well understood and d) human psychology of perception is well understood. Take all four areas of knowledge and you can only conclude that the claims of the subjectivists and charlatans like Curly Woods are false. There's no need to measure their systems.
It's like those quacks who claim they can get 'free energy' - you don't need to do the same tests, or do experiments with an open mind, etc to see their results. You only need to study the second law of thermodynamics. Once done with that, you know that 'free energy' machines don't work and there isn't really a global government/petro-industry conspiracy to silence the free-energy quacks. Man those guys crack me up. The "one-way magnetic field" stuff is best!! 😀
I don't have a million dollars in my bank, or I wouldn't be trying to learn how to fix my own equipment 🙂
But I know a guy who does.Challenge Info So, gonna take his challenge then?
btw, whilst I haven't read up everything on what happened between Randi and Fremer yet, I suspect if it was Randi who 'walked away' because of Fremer's requests, it was because those requests would have prevented a scientifically legitimate test. James Randi has always be strict about the test conditions - they have to be scientifically credible. Anyway, I'm still reading up on that.
My first priority is to go to Mars and see if there's some life form over there.
Have you? You would have a good chance to implemented some positive controls to exclude he's a patented liar?
Reading Randi explanation why he wouldn´t accept Fremers preferred cables for the challange makes nearly even me thinking that Fremer must really have superpowers. 😉
Wishes
Nothing has been proven as the validity of inaudibility of cables, let alone different components and sources, yet. See Floyd Toole's lasts works for further insight. You might at least have second thoughts about your stance.
Let me know what you find when you return. I hear that Saturn is nice this time of the year 🙂 What's the old saying "Takes one to know one" 🙂 Oh and i forgot, what was it that I lied about again?
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Ha .. thanks for the tip. 🙂
Nope,
My dad has a Headroom headphone amp with all the little switches for phase, gain, process on, brightness ...
When he listens in the dark he often bumps the switches and I'll find the gain up on one channel, the phase inverted, or the process on in one channel only. He usually doesn't notice, since he's just not listening for it.
I went in one time when he was listening and he was telling me how great it sounded. I went over and checked the switches found the phase inverted and the process off in one channel.
And my dad's hearing is just fine. Is anyone going to claim these differences aren't audible?
Tests don't work to well when you don't know your being tested.
It has, repeatedly. You just won't look at any of it.
Btw, any links to Floyd Toole's 'last papers'? [Edit]- can you give any info on what he's said/written/done and why you find it persuasive? Anything at all, or am I on another wild goose chase to distract me from the discussion you don't want to have ever?
Also, anyone got any good links to a full coverage of the Randi/Fremer and Rande/Atkinson issues?
Sounds like they work fine. Controlling for congnitive bias is a valuable technique, as your anecdote illustrates.
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Nothing has been done that has been definitive! There have been all types of studies, but nothing that clearly spells out what a human being is or is not capable of hearing. You will have to realize that there are far more people on the planet that do claim to hear differences in audio equipment than do not, but I continue to see things that suggest otherwise, except those that want to prove it us all to be wrong.
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