How about a dielectric constant nearly equal to Teflon, a dissipation factor less than half that of Teflon, and the change in dielectric constant from 1kHz-1GHz being nearly unmeasurable? A cost less than 1/4 of Teflon, far easier to process, and MUCH stiffer and tougher (= tighter windings, less microphonics)? Hmmmm.....
Frank:
Last I looked, all those plastics were organic. But what the hell do I know, I'm only a dumb polymer guy.
Last I looked, all those plastics were organic. But what the hell do I know, I'm only a dumb polymer guy.
Hi,
Sure but within the context of this thread the OT had natural organic dielectrics in mind as stated in the first post of this thread and its title.
Cotton, silk, etc.
Cheers, 😉
Sure but within the context of this thread the OT had natural organic dielectrics in mind as stated in the first post of this thread and its title.
Cotton, silk, etc.
Cheers, 😉
Ah, an Alice in Wonderland definition of "organic." So tell me, is mineral oil "organic" by your definition? Just asking because I now have no idea what you mean by the term. Especially because in the title and first post to which you refer, Bas never used the term "organic." That's your word here, so if you're going to use the word in a way unknown to anyone else, you ought to define it.
Hi Sy, I think Frank is using organic in the biological way (ie anything that is living or has once lived), and you are using it in the chemical way (as in organic chemistry, ie anything with carbon atoms)... Of course we could get into the whole (organic food) definition, which I find rather odd, but I don't think we are going down that route 😉
Just a thought 😉
Tony.
Just a thought 😉
Tony.
Stick to natural...?
But oil is natural. And so as it is organic. In both biological and chemical context.
But oil is natural. And so as it is organic. In both biological and chemical context.
"Organic" has exactly the same meaning to a biologist and a chemist. We all take the same organic chemistry classes. It is a specific technical term, and this is a technical forum.
Used in other contexts (marketing, politics), the meaning tends to be quite a bit fuzzier and subject to whim, so if Frank is talking as a marketer rather than someone technical, he needs to let us dumb technical guys know what he means when he uses a technical term in a marketing sense.
Used in other contexts (marketing, politics), the meaning tends to be quite a bit fuzzier and subject to whim, so if Frank is talking as a marketer rather than someone technical, he needs to let us dumb technical guys know what he means when he uses a technical term in a marketing sense.
On the topic of dielectrics I did some crude tests last winter, looking for an easier/more effective insulator to replace mica on flat package transistors (yeah, no life). I thought about painting the back plate with something and I eventually tried waterbased polyurethane, thinking this could be applied thin, is tough and (I assumed) is a good insulator. The problem I had was applying it smoothly enough, as it dries very quickly it doesn't "flow out" like it's solvent based cousin. I gave up on the idea then, distracted by other things.
Thinking about it since, I have come up with another way - this time I will dip the whole device and let the coating drip off.
What do you suppose the dielectric strength of waterbased polyurethane is and how does it compare with mica or silicone?
Thinking about it since, I have come up with another way - this time I will dip the whole device and let the coating drip off.
What do you suppose the dielectric strength of waterbased polyurethane is and how does it compare with mica or silicone?
Sure the competitors will argue that anything with carbon is "organic" but our company is the only one with Certified Organic Dielectrics™ - we invented the standard ourself so of course we are the only one.
Still keen to try those after some of the performance points you raised in other threads. Whenever I get back to AC coupled circuits.
So what's the 'gotcha' SY? DOE & NRC? FEMA?
Yes. So are polypropylene, polystyrene, polycarbonate, polyester... So? What do you mean when you use the word "organic?" Can you substantiate the remarkable statement that they contain "hygroscopic" "lots of air?" Or should it just be taken as a Declaration of Absolute Truth, not amenable to, you know, facts?
Hi,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_matter
It's not because you're being stubborn about not wanting to understand the TS' meaning of the topic's title that I'll have to justify every word I use, or is it?
So cotton, silk sleeving are both hygroscopic materials that contain lots of airpockets.
I don't see anything untrue in that statement but feel free to correct me.
Surely it's not the TS intent to discuss every single dielectric that conform to the definition of organic chemistry.
The idea, as I see it, is rather to find answers as to why natural matter (as in grown by Mother Nature) sound (to his mind) more natural than the typical chemically made dielectrics.
Cheers, 😉
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_matter
It's not because you're being stubborn about not wanting to understand the TS' meaning of the topic's title that I'll have to justify every word I use, or is it?
So cotton, silk sleeving are both hygroscopic materials that contain lots of airpockets.
I don't see anything untrue in that statement but feel free to correct me.
Surely it's not the TS intent to discuss every single dielectric that conform to the definition of organic chemistry.
The idea, as I see it, is rather to find answers as to why natural matter (as in grown by Mother Nature) sound (to his mind) more natural than the typical chemically made dielectrics.
Cheers, 😉
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Hi,
The materials mentioned in the topic's title are organic, aren't they Alice?
Cheers,
The thread opening question was, clearly, asking about natural, as opposed to 'transformed by chemical process', materials such as those which the questioner mentioned. It is very difficult to find anything manufactured by chemical change of the raw materials which has zilch organic content at sometime in the history of those raw materials.
So, despite the fact that the red-herrings introduced are both amusing and informative, how about keeping on topic by at least bringing to the table views which offer some element of proof for those views?
For myself I am of the view that bothy catagories of materials and even combinations of both 'artificial organic materials' and naturally found organic materials have their parts to play. I am not an engineer or scientist and my only test benches are on the sides of my head. I have however been involved in testing and even making some very well received and expensive cable systems.
Frank said "organic," and still hasn't bothered to define what he's talking about. Polymers are organic by any technical definition, and involve no more "manufacturing" than the refined cotton, wood, or other processed plant raw materials (which themselves are polymers, albeit very impure polymers) used in some caps. You've never been to a paper factory? Bleaches, pulps, sizings, alkalis, a very messy chemical process. Shaved tree bark is not what's used in capacitors.
The amount of moisture contained in the air pockets is nothing even vaguely close to what's absorbed by cellulose or lignin, so I still have no idea what Frank is trying to say. Using technical terms to mean something totally different and (as yet) totally undefined doesn't clarify. Frank, what are you actually trying to say?
The amount of moisture contained in the air pockets is nothing even vaguely close to what's absorbed by cellulose or lignin, so I still have no idea what Frank is trying to say. Using technical terms to mean something totally different and (as yet) totally undefined doesn't clarify. Frank, what are you actually trying to say?
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