G'day soundengine355,
It's a good idea to let your whole system settle in before making changes. Two weeks is simply not long enough for this to happen.
Cheers,
Alex
1) Don't alter the wiring. If you were to notice any kind of improvement after having changed the internal wiring I would say its most likely all in your mind. The situation where you would notice a real improvement simply doesn't exist in the B&Ws.
2) Don't alter the capacitors. Caps have other parameters besides the capacitance and changing them could upset the balance B&W most likely spent hours trying to perfect. By the looks of things the tweeters crossover is also very simple and as a result will be far more prone to reacting badly to small changes made in its network.
You say you want to change these things as 'upgrades' but have you ever thought that the changes could actually make things worse? There's just as much chance of that happening, then of you actually improving anything. We're not talking about £100 budget speakers where crap quality components are being used. B&W could have quite easily used any cap they wanted in the tweeters network. Have faith in their job as designers.
Spend more time listening to your new hifi rather then immediately wanting to change it in some way.
2) Don't alter the capacitors. Caps have other parameters besides the capacitance and changing them could upset the balance B&W most likely spent hours trying to perfect. By the looks of things the tweeters crossover is also very simple and as a result will be far more prone to reacting badly to small changes made in its network.
You say you want to change these things as 'upgrades' but have you ever thought that the changes could actually make things worse? There's just as much chance of that happening, then of you actually improving anything. We're not talking about £100 budget speakers where crap quality components are being used. B&W could have quite easily used any cap they wanted in the tweeters network. Have faith in their job as designers.
Spend more time listening to your new hifi rather then immediately wanting to change it in some way.
Duelund CAST on the tweeter and VSF on the mid would be a nice upgrade in tonality and spatial information. IMO, Mundorf is over rated, though I haven't heard SGO's yet.
But, I would put more hours on them before changing anything. When fully broken in, you may enjoy them without making any changes.
Assuming they're new, you will also invalidate the guarantee if you start pulling them open & mucking about with a soldering iron.
FWIW, if you really must change the internal wire for some peculiar reason, then make sure it has exactly the same RLC properties as the stuff you pull out. If nothing else, that will ensure that it behaves & sounds as B&W designed it to, which presumably you want given that you obviously liked the damn things enough to stump up what is a heck of a lot of cash, although the distances are so short we're talking inaudible differences anyway unless you completely lost the plot & used something like resistance wire. You say you think that they can be 'better.' How do you define 'better', and how do you think that a different internal wire will result in these improvements? That's a genuine question BTW.
A further point is that you will have to ensure the connections are of as high a standard as possible. Connections have generally caused more problems than any wire ever has, & while footling about with reasonable lengths of speaker wire at least can and does alter the presentation through it's electrical properties changing the amp - speaker interface, even there, if you want to reap the potential benefits (whatever they might be), you need to minimise the connection losses.
Frankly, I can think of far better things to worry about. I could even think of better things related to hi-fi to reflect on. Internal wiring really doesn't make a whole of a lot of difference unless it's of really dodgy quality (i.e. ludicrously thin for the load, duff connections &c.). You'd do better spending your time / money elsewhere, such as improving the room (the biggest PITA in the entire chain), or buy some more music. You'll get a whole lot more benefit from that than changing a few pieces of internal wiring.
FWIW, if you really must change the internal wire for some peculiar reason, then make sure it has exactly the same RLC properties as the stuff you pull out. If nothing else, that will ensure that it behaves & sounds as B&W designed it to, which presumably you want given that you obviously liked the damn things enough to stump up what is a heck of a lot of cash, although the distances are so short we're talking inaudible differences anyway unless you completely lost the plot & used something like resistance wire. You say you think that they can be 'better.' How do you define 'better', and how do you think that a different internal wire will result in these improvements? That's a genuine question BTW.
A further point is that you will have to ensure the connections are of as high a standard as possible. Connections have generally caused more problems than any wire ever has, & while footling about with reasonable lengths of speaker wire at least can and does alter the presentation through it's electrical properties changing the amp - speaker interface, even there, if you want to reap the potential benefits (whatever they might be), you need to minimise the connection losses.
Frankly, I can think of far better things to worry about. I could even think of better things related to hi-fi to reflect on. Internal wiring really doesn't make a whole of a lot of difference unless it's of really dodgy quality (i.e. ludicrously thin for the load, duff connections &c.). You'd do better spending your time / money elsewhere, such as improving the room (the biggest PITA in the entire chain), or buy some more music. You'll get a whole lot more benefit from that than changing a few pieces of internal wiring.
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I agree with Scott; as he suggests, how much have you spent on room acoustics? This is a factor which definately can make a profound difference to the sound you hear. If you can pinpoint any exact issues with the sound and show us the room, we can mabye advise how to improve it. If there are no issues you hear, then leave it be or you'll be taking an absolute shot in the dark trying to improve the sound by throwing money at it!
Thanks for all your comments.
I've ordered the Van Den Hul SCS-12 ( http://www.vandenhul.com/p_D12AC.aspx ).
I will look at capacitor upgrades ones the internal wiring is done. Probally go for:
Tweeter: Mundorf Gold/Silver -> Dueland CAST Copper
Midrange: Mundorf Supreme -> Dueland VSF Copper
Midrange: Mundorf Mcap -> Not sure yet
I've ordered the Van Den Hul SCS-12 ( http://www.vandenhul.com/p_D12AC.aspx ).
I will look at capacitor upgrades ones the internal wiring is done. Probally go for:
Tweeter: Mundorf Gold/Silver -> Dueland CAST Copper
Midrange: Mundorf Supreme -> Dueland VSF Copper
Midrange: Mundorf Mcap -> Not sure yet
You will get more improvement by re positioning the speaker and improving the acoustics of your room by using acoustics products, than by changing the parts on an already hot rodded speaker....I promise you this.
True. But let's get some perspective. For the OP it's not about the sound so much. Clearly money isn't a factor for him(her?). If I try very hard toput myself in the OP's shoes I can almost feel aggrieved by that $7 wire. Let's agree to disagree with him (I suspect her because she called me "bokkie").
bokkie= trestle/dear/little goat/darling/sweetie
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Just how likely is it that B&W would skimp on the wiring if changing it would noticeably improve the sound of their overall package?
These are top-line speakers already costing top-line prices. They're not interested in cost-cutting on the parts for these.
You have trusted B&W with a considerable sum of money, but you still want to second-guess them. The big expert! The man who knew better than B&W!
A fool and his money are soon parted.
w
These are top-line speakers already costing top-line prices. They're not interested in cost-cutting on the parts for these.
You have trusted B&W with a considerable sum of money, but you still want to second-guess them. The big expert! The man who knew better than B&W!
A fool and his money are soon parted.
w
"Improve the sound"
"Improve the sound" - That is what it is all about!
But since nobody knows what that means, and no two people think it means the same thing, it is just a further excercise in futility. 🙂
"Improve the sound" - That is what it is all about!
But since nobody knows what that means, and no two people think it means the same thing, it is just a further excercise in futility. 🙂
That isn't what wakibaki was saying.🙄
B&W have no reason to skimp on their cost no object speakers. They most likely tried many different capacitors and wiring arrangements and ended up with what's in the loudspeaker you buy. I would expect their to be a reason for this.
Wiring I can't see making any difference at all. If you perceive a difference, that's most likely your brain kidding you. If there's a measurable difference, the original wiring was inadequate (which in B&Ws case it isn't) or there was a faulty connection somewhere.
A cap change I can see altering the sound, but who's to say if it's for the better?
Beyond anything the OP should at least listen to the speakers for a couple of months before changing anything at all - well maybe the wiring if they are so eager to tweak.
I wouldn't call them no object since they do have more expensive speakers. And compared to some Wilson, Focal, and Peak Consult, they're a bargain.
It can. I've tried at least a dozen types of wire internally. Copper and silver Goertz flatwire, Kimber, various Monster, generic stranded, Neotech, Cardas, etc... Some sounded identical, some didn't, some were lifeless, some the opposite.
I agree 100%. For example, I love Claritycap MR's. IMO, they sound better than Duelund VSF's in some applications, but they don't mix well with some drivers/applications. It all comes down to synergy.
I agree.
They are a bargain considering the price of some of the competition, nevertheless hifi magazines put them on an equal footing with other cost no object loudspeakers. The point being, I doubt B&W said, no sorry we can't include a more expensive cap because that would turn our bargain cost no object loudspeaker, into still a bargain 😀
B&W do design these for cost no object installations - at least as far as I know. And if they were designed against a target price that prevented them from using a more expensive cap, or internal wiring, I'd be very surprised.
Which ones were lifeless? And why do you think that they were? I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm genuinely interested.
Kimber 4TC stands out, and I believe Goertz copper foil wasn't far behind. Maybe too because they're both what's considered high capacitance designs, their geometry, I can't say for sure.
Here's a million bucks for all of you with golden ears who can tell the diff between wire:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/randi.htm
I have a soft corner for B&W. They make good loudspeakers which are fantastic value for money. And their cost no object are really amazing loudspeakers. I've heard their >$100,000 nautilus snails. Just being in the presence of those is awe-inspiring.
Roger Russell's views on speaker wire also make an interesting read.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/randi.htm
I have a soft corner for B&W. They make good loudspeakers which are fantastic value for money. And their cost no object are really amazing loudspeakers. I've heard their >$100,000 nautilus snails. Just being in the presence of those is awe-inspiring.
Roger Russell's views on speaker wire also make an interesting read.
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