"Best" PA subdesign for the Eminence Kappalite 3015LF - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Subwoofers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 25th March 2013, 07:52 PM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Gothenburg
Default "Best" PA subdesign for the Eminence Kappalite 3015LF

Hello everyone!

First post for me on this forum, but I have been lurking for a while, reading about a lot of interesting sub designs here

As the title says, Im wondering which design you guys would say is the best for the Eminence Kappalite 3015LF driver.

To give you some background, Ive built two BFM Titan48s, 80cm wide, loaded with one 3015LF each, and I have 2 more drivers waiting for cabs.

Im not really unhappy with the T48, but they are large, and sometimes Id really like to go a bit lower than 40hz. I probably should have built something like like Bills T60 from the beginning, but I didnt..

I have a small rental company, so my PA need to be able to handle most kinds of music as we do both Livesound and a lot of electronic dance music events, with EDM being our forte. Both indoors and outdoors, but mostly indoors so far.
What I want is a cab that can either go lower than a quad of T48s (steep HPF @35hz) with a flatter response curve and similar size or smaller. Atleast 30hz with reasonable SPL.
Or, a smaller cab that does the same frequencys as the T48, 35/40-100hz, but is smaller and flatter response.
I would trade SPL at 100hz for more SPL at 35-40hz.
The T48 is not very flat from 35 to 100, so I usually EQ them a bit flatter.

I must say that I love the nice clean effortless bass they give, on Livesound they are fantastic, but then you dont need sub 40hz.
But I feel they are lacking when we are playing stuff like Hardstyle or Hardcore, some Psytrance or even some modern House music.

I ran a bunch of songs through Resonic Alphas RTA, and most electronic dance music that I have/play seem to peak at around 27-32Hz..

Also, I might still be missing the distortion/harmonics that "normal" 2x18cabs and such produces, but the FLH doesnt..
Ive read around here that a Tapped Horn seems to have more distortion then a Front Loaded Horn, so perhaps a bass reflex or TH would suit my music better?

Specifically the Hardcore music I listen to is almost based on distortion, so perhaps the horns are actually taking away something that should be there?

Of course, the sensitivity still needs to be high, I do need a lot of SPL :P But I no longer sure that Bills T48 actually gives you all that much more sensitivity if one wants a lot of low bass, or simply EQing it flat.

Ive read some threads about designs like THAM15 and similar, and Im intriuged by these rather simple to build designs and their flat responsecurves

So, what would you guys recommend?

PS, I have 4 sheets of baltic birch, 12x1220x2440mm waiting to be used, and Id like to build atleast two more subs in the nearest weeks

Best Regards
Robin Larsson
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2013, 09:30 PM   #2
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin N Zone View Post
As the title says, Im wondering which design you guys would say is the best for the Eminence Kappalite 3015LF driver.

What I want is a cab that can either go lower than a quad of T48s (steep HPF @35hz) with a flatter response curve and similar size or smaller. Atleast 30hz with reasonable SPL.
Or, a smaller cab that does the same frequencys as the T48, 35/40-100hz, but is smaller and flatter response.
I would trade SPL at 100hz for more SPL at 35-40hz.

Also, I might still be missing the distortion/harmonics that "normal" 2x18cabs and such produces, but the FLH doesnt..
Ive read around here that a Tapped Horn seems to have more distortion then a Front Loaded Horn, so perhaps a bass reflex or TH would suit my music better?

Specifically the Hardcore music I listen to is almost based on distortion, so perhaps the horns are actually taking away something that should be there?
Robin,

Loud, sub 40 Hz response with low distortion are not easily satisfied when using a weak cone with relatively low Xmax (the 3015LF) in a horn.

Lots of musical styles have distorted bass, but it is not necessary to add cone breakup distortion on top of that, though distortion makes a sub seem louder.

If you don't mind distortion, there are several TH designs to choose from that use the 3015LF.

The larger they are, the lower and louder they go.
What size are you looking for?
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2013, 10:07 PM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Gothenburg
Weltersys, thanks for your answer!

Yeah, I was kind of expecting something along those lines, that the 3015LF is a "weak" low xmax driver. Coming from the BFM forum where the 3015LF is highly regarded, it almost feels strange But well, I did know there were better drivers out there

I get what you are saying, and I understand that there is no free lunches. But perhaps there is a better mousetrap for low bass and 2-4 3015LFs then the Titan48?

Well, if I cant get really low bass with the 3015LFs, say good 30hz or even slightly below, then I may consider building a quad of somewhat smaller cabs, 35-40hz HPF and use them primarily for livesound and smaller electronic gigs. And then find a better driver and design to go to 25hz or so for the more demanding electronic shows.
So size is a it dependant on how low I could practically go with the drivers I have on hand.

But a design that could go to atleast 30hz and relatively flat with just 2, could be allowed to be a bit bigger than the T48s, and the ones I have now are 61x80x122cm outside.
But, say that I go with a 35-40hz design, then Id like them to be smaller, in that case size would be more important, say 50x60x100cm or smaller, or that range

Could you recommend any tapped horns using the 3015LF?

Are tapped horns "allways" more efficient than Bass reflex? for the same driver and similiar size and range?

Regarding distortion, well, as you say, it makes cab sound louder, but it doesnt sound as good of course, but there might be a better balance then a FLH?
Ive been tought that FLHs "filters" out distortion and harmonics that the driver creates, but if thats true, shouldnt it also filter out distortion that was put in the bass-sound by the artist? Or are those sounds actually higher in the frequencyrange and then played by the tops?

Thanks again Weltersys!
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2013, 10:42 PM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
2x15 bass reflex cabs. 30hz just isn't going to happen with any reasonably sized horn.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2013, 10:59 PM   #5
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Gothenburg
turbodawg, thanks for your input! I have to say that Ive been thinking about bass reflex also. Would I have to give up very much sensitivity if I went with BR tuned to 30-35hz?

Are you saying that 30z wont happen with the kappalite 3015lf in a reasobly sized horn, or that no driver/horn could do it?

If I would go the BR route, would there be any real performance benefit of going 2x15 compared to two 1x15s? Singles will of course be more work to build, weigh a bit more, but be more flexible.

How low could I resonably go with a horn and the 3015? 35hz as the T48 is capable of? Wouldnt a tapped horn be smaller for the same output?
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2013, 11:38 PM   #6
Xoc1 is offline Xoc1  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Xoc1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Devon UK
For the frequency and size you want I would consider a PPSL enclosure
A Thread for those interested in PPSL enclosures.
The PPSL double reflex design with with the drivers in a plenum chamber helps to reduce some harmonic distortions when compared with single driver boxes. Apart from an extra 2 panels of wood there is very little difference between a conventional double 15 reflex and 2 single driver cabinets.
Otherwise your goals are not that realistic, in as much as tuning that low will lose you lots of efficiency. Tuning the boxes higher will gain lots of efficiency.
You say you have 4 sheets of 12mm 8' x 4' birch ply - this is fairly thin for most reflex designs.
On the other hand you could build 4 SS 15 cabs with the timber - load them with your 3015 drivers and if you can live with the frequency response you would be in business.
Single sheet TH challenge
This is probably your best option!
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2013, 12:15 AM   #7
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin N Zone View Post
1)Could you recommend any tapped horns using the 3015LF?
2)Are tapped horns "allways" more efficient than Bass reflex? for the same driver and similiar size and range?
3)Regarding distortion, well, as you say, it makes cab sound louder, but it doesnt sound as good of course, but there might be a better balance then a FLH?
4)Ive been tought that FLHs "filters" out distortion and harmonics that the driver creates, but if thats true, shouldnt it also filter out distortion that was put in the bass-sound by the artist?
5)Or are those sounds actually higher in the frequencyrange and then played by the tops?
Robin,
1) Not for use below about 40 Hz. I tried the 4015LF (stiffer than a 3015LF) in my Keystone TH and it was so distorted I didn't even bother measuring the distortion, which was gross compared to Lab 12s or the B&C18SW115-4.
Those lightweight drivers can stand up to the pressures in BR, but if you try to get the extra 6 dB or so output a TH can offer, the extra output will have plenty of extra distortion.
2) If the driver works for the TH, yes, but the optimum TH will be slightly larger than a BR for a given low frequency corner.
For maximum output per given truck space, BR beats TH, but requires more power and drivers.
3) FLH do tend to filter harmonics better than TH, but don't require multiples for low bass. When using good drivers, distortion is not a problem in TH.
4,5) Harmonic distortion generated by loudspeakers are not part of the original signal, and are at multiples of the fundamental frequencies, ie, 40 Hz, second harmonic 80 Hz, third 120 Hz, fourth 160 Hz, etc.
Even order harmonics are always musically related (octaves), but odd order harmonics are not, and can sound weird, wrong and just plain lousy.

Push Pull reduces only even order harmonics.

If distortion is present in a recording, a clean system will reproduce the distortion as the producer intended it, upper harmonics from the top speakers.

Art

Last edited by weltersys; 26th March 2013 at 12:20 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2013, 12:43 AM   #8
jbell is offline jbell  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: .
yep I've built big and small on the 3015lf and variations. Best overall compromise is the SS15 (in my opinion) Highpass at 32hz 24db/oct LR.

T48 is -13db @40hz vs 100hz. (by design) A TH is a world apart in terms of it's response curve.

SS15 is vastly different than a BFM FLH.

(I know... the reason the T36 is no more on BFM's site is because of me.....)
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2013, 03:00 AM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin N Zone View Post
turbodawg, thanks for your input! I have to say that Ive been thinking about bass reflex also. Would I have to give up very much sensitivity if I went with BR tuned to 30-35hz?

Are you saying that 30z wont happen with the kappalite 3015lf in a reasobly sized horn, or that no driver/horn could do it?

If I would go the BR route, would there be any real performance benefit of going 2x15 compared to two 1x15s? Singles will of course be more work to build, weigh a bit more, but be more flexible.

How low could I resonably go with a horn and the 3015? 35hz as the T48 is capable of? Wouldnt a tapped horn be smaller for the same output?

Well, you can check out my 15" project here, they hit 30hz indoors and weigh 55lb built up and finished, 22x20x16 box, 1/2" plywood:

Ultra compact ported 15" Dayton Ref HO

I'm extremely happy with the portability and performance of them so far, they seem to be somewhat efficient by the models, but who knows.

I had the kappa in horn resp, in a BR have to go up to about a 150l chamber to get any decent response down to 30hz, so about 6 cubes per driver for a cab, which is wildly ineffective, might as well keep the t48's.

Oh and yes, I would consider the T48 "big", not going to get anything smaller in a horn that will hit 30hz that I'm aware of.

Last edited by turbodawg; 26th March 2013 at 03:13 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2013, 03:36 AM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Also, I was inspired by this design, but mine makes considerably different design choices, is a hair bigger, digs deeper and uses a driver more commonly available in the US:

Q15 Compact 15" Bass bin - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 1
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS: Eminence Kappalite 3015LF Neo 15" Drivers 450W/900W 8 Ohms CRESCENDO Swap Meet 5 6th August 2012 10:59 AM
FS: EMINENCE KAPPALITE 3015LF 15" Neodymium Subwoofer 900W 8 Ohms djbenno Swap Meet 3 20th July 2011 04:34 PM
Eminence Kappalite 3012LF sub project Defo Multi-Way 9 27th July 2009 02:46 AM
FS: unused pair of Eminence Kappalite 3015LF Neo wofoers - $250 SHIPPED taloyd Swap Meet 0 27th March 2008 01:13 AM
Enclosures for Eminence Sigma 18" and/or Eminence Kilomax 15", PA-sub application esaias Subwoofers 8 10th August 2005 06:17 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:38 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2