This is the type of supply I use:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Boschert-Switch...itemZ7540418155QQcategoryZ58286QQcmdZViewItem
It's very difficult to find a used 100+ amp 12 volt supply. It's relatively easy to find the 5 volt versions. I have 2 sets of the 5x3 supplies and they work fine. New supplies that can supply more than 100 amps at 12+ volts are going to cost $1K+. The 5v supplies are relatively inexpensive. Of course, if you can find a single 12 volt supply that can deliver the required current for a reasonable price, that would be the best option.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Boschert-Switch...itemZ7540418155QQcategoryZ58286QQcmdZViewItem
It's very difficult to find a used 100+ amp 12 volt supply. It's relatively easy to find the 5 volt versions. I have 2 sets of the 5x3 supplies and they work fine. New supplies that can supply more than 100 amps at 12+ volts are going to cost $1K+. The 5v supplies are relatively inexpensive. Of course, if you can find a single 12 volt supply that can deliver the required current for a reasonable price, that would be the best option.
Instead of me keep asking these questions as they come, can you just tell me what equipment I actually NEED to make this a 'safe' and 'stable' system please? You know this stuff MUCH better than me anyway.
NOTE: I do NOT want to underpower my amplifier, I want to run it at it's full potential. Thanks.
NOTE: I do NOT want to underpower my amplifier, I want to run it at it's full potential. Thanks.
http://www.innovative.co.nz/PDF/DS-Schaefer_Std_DC.pdf
I found that beast but I doubt it's within the $500 range :O!
I found that beast but I doubt it's within the $500 range :O!
IMHO the best solution for this ( and without doubt the most economic) , is, as you mentioned, a couple standard sealed lead-acid batteries, a quite heavy battery charger, and a voltage regulator, set to perhaps 12V. Many car audio dealers use this. I think the voltage regulator is important, since some battery chargers can achieve 20V's or even higher peaks...
If you are going to use this setup at home, i doubt you will run it at maximum power, longer than a few seconds at a time.
If you use two 60Ah batteries, you can run the amps at full rms power for more than 5-10 minutes.
If you are going to use this setup at home, i doubt you will run it at maximum power, longer than a few seconds at a time.
If you use two 60Ah batteries, you can run the amps at full rms power for more than 5-10 minutes.
Loial said:
What? Why only 5-10 minutes? They are being charged at a constant rate by the battery charger, so why can they only go for 5-10mins (at the max of 3000watts even)? I don't quite understand. Thing is, I want the equipment to be able to handle me playing at full volume and for say 2 hours at a time.. maybe not FULL volume all the time but I'll be playing at quite high volumes for most of the time. Also, wtf is the point in even getting ANY equipment if it can only handle "5-10minutes"... I think that is something the most idiotic person on earth would do. I'm not attacking your post, but man that just don't make any sense to me aye
I don't really want to use batteries, they do go F'd up after a while we know that for sure. I'd prefer using a proper power supply, though I ALSO understand that this might not be possible for around the $500 budget. I can spend no more than $500 for the power supply or whatever equipment to power my amplifier.
Thanks again!
You still don't understand the MOST important part...
Even if you have a 500A supply, you will still need to get at least 15-20A from the wall outlet to power it. Problem is that is neither common nor safe, ALL the power supplies in this size I have seen are multiple-phase units that require a 20A+ breaker and the weird sockets for 110 or 220V usage (go look at the plug on your drying machine to see what I am talking about).
And all you need is a 150A supply, NOT 300.
-Matt
Even if you have a 500A supply, you will still need to get at least 15-20A from the wall outlet to power it. Problem is that is neither common nor safe, ALL the power supplies in this size I have seen are multiple-phase units that require a 20A+ breaker and the weird sockets for 110 or 220V usage (go look at the plug on your drying machine to see what I am talking about).
And all you need is a 150A supply, NOT 300.
-Matt
After reading your first post it occured to me that you are asking this question in the wrong forum, you should be asking this in car audio even though it's for a PS. First of all You don't need anything close to 135A to use this amp. The power supplies used at stores are like the ones select products sells. Unless you have bench tested your amp and know what it puts out I can tell you that the 1500wrms at 20hms is a maximum rating at a large amount of distortion. Installers call the the IFS rating (if lightning strikes). Pioneer does not under rate their amps, they over rate their amps. If you want to look at a company that under rates their amps look at JL. Their 500/1 when tested measured at 800wrms into 2 ohms. They also switched to the new standard of mesuring called CEA-2006 which as far as I know pioneer has not. You are also forgeting that unless you are pushing your amp to max power all the time you will never need that many amps. There have been many people who have used even a computer PS to power their car amps in home.
Personally I think that a PS to use your amp at home is a waste unless you are planning on switching amps often to test their sound on high end home speakers. For the price of a PS you could buy a very nice home sub amp. Hell, for the $400 you will spend on the PS you could buy a nice sub and sub amp. Pioneer subs are not known for their SQ. You could buy an adire audio sub and an amp from apexjr or if you don't want to build an enclosure you could pick up a sonnicraft sub kit with enclosure from madisound. Hell for a bit more you could get a NHT sub kit.
Personally I think that a PS to use your amp at home is a waste unless you are planning on switching amps often to test their sound on high end home speakers. For the price of a PS you could buy a very nice home sub amp. Hell, for the $400 you will spend on the PS you could buy a nice sub and sub amp. Pioneer subs are not known for their SQ. You could buy an adire audio sub and an amp from apexjr or if you don't want to build an enclosure you could pick up a sonnicraft sub kit with enclosure from madisound. Hell for a bit more you could get a NHT sub kit.
Johnny
If your budget is $500 why on earth would you be considering such a crazy (moronic?) idea. Scrap the car amp idea and buy a real (mains powered) amplifier. Have you ever seen a car battery blow-up? Its not pretty. If you shop around, for $500 you could get a decent starter system including a plate amp for the sub, a receiver, DVD player, and speakers. If it was me I would sell the Pioneer sub and amp and start over.
If your budget is $500 why on earth would you be considering such a crazy (moronic?) idea. Scrap the car amp idea and buy a real (mains powered) amplifier. Have you ever seen a car battery blow-up? Its not pretty. If you shop around, for $500 you could get a decent starter system including a plate amp for the sub, a receiver, DVD player, and speakers. If it was me I would sell the Pioneer sub and amp and start over.
What? Why only 5-10 minutes? They are being charged at a constant rate by the battery charger, so why can they only go for 5-10mins (at the max of 3000watts even)? I don't quite understand. Thing is, I want the equipment to be able to handle me playing at full volume and for say 2 hours at a time.. maybe not FULL volume all the time but I'll be playing at quite high volumes for most of the time. Also, wtf is the point in even getting ANY equipment if it can only handle "5-10minutes"... I think that is something the most idiotic person on earth would do. I'm not attacking your post, but man that just don't make any sense to me aye
Well, to begin with - when you say "playing for huors at full volume" - that is music you play then, right? playing ordinary music, even at full volume, doesn't require the full power from the amps, more like 1/10:th of it seen over a longer time perspective.
( If you plan on playing a 20Hz sine for hours, then your power supply is not the thing to die first. )
And, even more powerful chargers aren't able to deliver anything near 560 amps, more like 10-50 amps, the chargers charge the batteries when the amps aren't using a lot of current.
You should be able to play at FULL rms power for, say, 10 minutes, to be on the safe side with battery lifespan etc...
Even if you play "quite high", the required power from your amps is not big, because of the logarithmic behaviour of sound.
DJNUBZ > Dude this equipment IS under rated, you obviously haven't checked out the specifications OR calculated technical data. This amplfieir can run at 2000RMS @ 2Ohm CONTINUOUS, if you knew half as much as you think you did about audio equipment, you would know this, or even better - you would be able to calculate this. I DO need a 300amp power supply, the maximum current draw at 3600W, @ 12V input, is 300A. I know that it doesn't draw this current all the time, only when it is at it's peak output power for a couple of seconds max at a time. That is the maximum current it will ever need at it's full power. Which means I won't be underpowering it, which is my goal. ALSO, this amplifier and amp makes chicken **** of a JL W7, even when powered to full potential, believe what you want, but you might want to read some more about my equipment before you start critisizing, it ***** on a JL W7 - WHEN a W7 is powered to it's best. You're talking about 1500wrms @ 2Ohms (at a large amount of distortion) as a MAXIMUM reading.. okay then whatever you say dude, you know everything don't you? You don't know the first thing about what continuous RMS ratings mean, do you? Nor peak power ratings. Obviously not judging by your posts. This amp has a THD of 0.05%. ****, I'm no expert but at least I understand the ****, that is fuckall distortion.
DCDave > I'm not asking for suggestions on buying equipment for a HOME THEATRE AUDIO SYSTEM, I'm asking for help on SUPPLYING SUFFICIENT POWER to my amplifier. I'm not a moron either. I don't WANT the equipment you specified, I have the equipment I bought because of a reason.
Guys (and girls) please note that I am getting extremely irritated and frustrated because I just want to sort out how to power this setup, and I'm not really finding a solution yet. When people post **** about getting different equipment, telling me it's nearly impossible or even critisizing my equipment, it just bumps the "F'd off level" up even more. Don't take any offence by my posts I am just extremely annoyed.
Peace out~
JohnnyJ
DCDave > I'm not asking for suggestions on buying equipment for a HOME THEATRE AUDIO SYSTEM, I'm asking for help on SUPPLYING SUFFICIENT POWER to my amplifier. I'm not a moron either. I don't WANT the equipment you specified, I have the equipment I bought because of a reason.
Guys (and girls) please note that I am getting extremely irritated and frustrated because I just want to sort out how to power this setup, and I'm not really finding a solution yet. When people post **** about getting different equipment, telling me it's nearly impossible or even critisizing my equipment, it just bumps the "F'd off level" up even more. Don't take any offence by my posts I am just extremely annoyed.
Peace out~
JohnnyJ
How about 200mV 15000A power supply?
Shhure you need thick power cords...
-----
If you want to power your setup at continuous basis @3kW there is no cheap option in power supply. If you use battery and can live with the information that max power is availlable only for 1 hour per day then 20-50A charger and 4x75Ah sealed lead acid batteries are enough. Even 10Amps charger is enough if you can wait for 2 days after complete discharge
Realistically talking that 4x75Ah battery bank will last for 3 to 10 hours even at maximum volume as average power in music is lot less than peaks(and you dont want clipping in your peaks, right?)
Rule of the thumb is that if you use 3kW on peaks and amp is not clipping/distorting then average power is only 300W. (on subwoofer use this coarse rule of thumb is sometimes optimistic, on classical music its pessimistic.)
Starter batteries are bit tricky as they have bad habit to spill acid on your carpet and exploding around your walls. IF you can keep them outside, much better.
Downsides: SLA batteries might last 300 deep-cycle discharges, so you need to renew your batteries every year if used near empty every day. -->cost
Shhure you need thick power cords...
-----
If you want to power your setup at continuous basis @3kW there is no cheap option in power supply. If you use battery and can live with the information that max power is availlable only for 1 hour per day then 20-50A charger and 4x75Ah sealed lead acid batteries are enough. Even 10Amps charger is enough if you can wait for 2 days after complete discharge
Realistically talking that 4x75Ah battery bank will last for 3 to 10 hours even at maximum volume as average power in music is lot less than peaks(and you dont want clipping in your peaks, right?)
Rule of the thumb is that if you use 3kW on peaks and amp is not clipping/distorting then average power is only 300W. (on subwoofer use this coarse rule of thumb is sometimes optimistic, on classical music its pessimistic.)
Starter batteries are bit tricky as they have bad habit to spill acid on your carpet and exploding around your walls. IF you can keep them outside, much better.
Downsides: SLA batteries might last 300 deep-cycle discharges, so you need to renew your batteries every year if used near empty every day. -->cost
After reading some more about your equipment, I noticed that the Max. Current Consumption (A/4 ohm) was stated to be 70A. This is three lines from the end of the link you posted to your amp.
Why would you prefer to have a 300A supply for a device with 70A max current consumption? If you really believe it is more than that, then put a bunch of stiffening caps to take care of the instantaneous current draw.
After your done, go rent/borrow a clamp on ammeter and post your readings. After all, that will help prove/disprove the specs and your calculations. Yes, even in the "world of physics" as you called it, calculations require confirmation throughout experimentation.
Sandy.
PS: To add a little help, since you do seem dead set on a 300A supply, you need to look for #00 AWG or equivalent wire to ensure a small temperature rise between your power supply and the amp. That is just over 9mm in diameter for the copper conductor, excluding the required insulation. Also note, that this is assuming just a single insulated (American type THHN etc) conductor in room temperature air. If you were to use multiple conductors in one, you would need to de-rate that further.
For a 70A draw, you would be fine with #8 AWG wire (which is about 3mm in diameter). Does it look like the power connections on the amp are sized for 3mm or 9mm copper wires?
Of course, this is per the NEC in the US. The rules might be different where you live.
According to the manual it is 1500 watts at 2% distortion into 2ohms.
The amp has a 150 amp fuse. Therefore you don't need more than 150 amps. If it draws more than 150 amps the fuse blows. You could start with a 30amp powersupply with a bank of capacitors and be fine b/c average consumption into 2ohms is 15 amps. Thats assuming you will be listening to music, and not doing dB drag racing.
If you find it is not enough power you can always increase your powersupply current.Before you criticize people's knowledge you should have the facts in hand. First off that .05% is into 50 watts at 100 hz which means next to nothing with this amp. You are really looking at 1% distortion at 750 watts into 4ohms and 2% distortion at 1500 watts into 2ohms.
JohnnyJ said:
I was not mentioned specifically in your list...BUT you DO only need 150A, I DID give you suggestions on ways to do it.
Maybe you can just leave if you're so pissed and design your own power supply and reap your own failure when it blows up in your face/starts your parent's house on fire/ruins your amplifier?
P.S. Don't take any offence by my posts I am just extremely annoyed.
-Matt
Don't blame you Matt, All you guys have done is try to help this "expert" out and he is throwing a tantrum and spitting on the hand that rocks him....
he is frustrated because he wants YOU to conform to his misgivings and does not want to learn or Understand.
Lastly as with every noobie on this forum, they sometimes think the forum is full of dimwits with no experience who like to "speculate" and who are envious of the noobies good fortune and taste in equipment...
he is frustrated because he wants YOU to conform to his misgivings and does not want to learn or Understand.Lastly as with every noobie on this forum, they sometimes think the forum is full of dimwits with no experience who like to "speculate" and who are envious of the noobies good fortune and taste in equipment...
You can get as upset as you want but what I say is true. I have worked as a profesional installer for over a year and a half at a mid to high end company. I have delt with many amp companies such as zapco,alpine,pioneer,JL,kicker,eclipse,xtant and many more. I am not going to pick apart you post or get into a discussion on the truth in car amp ratings. The fact of the matter is that if you want a 12V 300A PS you are going to have to either build it or buy a few PS from select products and piggyback them. Getting upset because you arn't getting the answer you want is rediculous.
I checked into this amp and found that it doesn't require more then 70A max, why are you so dead set on a 300A PS? IF you used a 35A PS you wouldn't have as much power but you would only be down 3-6db which is almost noting.
*edit* I found another sire that posted the cea-2006 specs for this amp.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/product/detail/0,,2076_183982244_152869139,00.html
This shows us this amp is 750X1 at 4 ohms at <1% distortion and 1500X1 at two ohms at <1% distortion. To get 3000wrms from a setup with this amp you need TWO of these amps, they bridge together to act as one amp.
Notice that these specs are not what you are claiming and the cea2006 specs don't match the published specs exactly. Mabey if you learned more and got upset less we wouldn't have even needed this thread.
I checked into this amp and found that it doesn't require more then 70A max, why are you so dead set on a 300A PS? IF you used a 35A PS you wouldn't have as much power but you would only be down 3-6db which is almost noting.
*edit* I found another sire that posted the cea-2006 specs for this amp.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/product/detail/0,,2076_183982244_152869139,00.html
This shows us this amp is 750X1 at 4 ohms at <1% distortion and 1500X1 at two ohms at <1% distortion. To get 3000wrms from a setup with this amp you need TWO of these amps, they bridge together to act as one amp.
Notice that these specs are not what you are claiming and the cea2006 specs don't match the published specs exactly. Mabey if you learned more and got upset less we wouldn't have even needed this thread.
This is a class-D amplifier, it will draw almost half the average current as a standard amplifier of the same size.
The peak to average current issue is further solved by employing a 1 to 2 farad capacitor, this allows to run amplifiers of that size with music signals at full output swing with just a 30 or 40A PSU.
I've already mentioned several times that I've powered show-car setups with approx. 2.000W rms in class AB amplifiers, driven continuously at full output swing with music signals, with just a 72A power supply (developed by myself) and a 1.2F capacitor. The power supply was entering current limiting mode during transients, but the BUS voltage was always above 13.2V thanks to the capacitor.
Actually car-audio amplifiers proved to be quite unreliable since they overheated and started to shut down periodically after less than an hour or so of continuous usage, so I had to borrow some fans in a hurry. My PSU was sized for continuous usage and didnt's suffer that problem, though.
I would have preferred to use PA amplifiers, but market dictates the laws...
The peak to average current issue is further solved by employing a 1 to 2 farad capacitor, this allows to run amplifiers of that size with music signals at full output swing with just a 30 or 40A PSU.
I've already mentioned several times that I've powered show-car setups with approx. 2.000W rms in class AB amplifiers, driven continuously at full output swing with music signals, with just a 72A power supply (developed by myself) and a 1.2F capacitor. The power supply was entering current limiting mode during transients, but the BUS voltage was always above 13.2V thanks to the capacitor.
Actually car-audio amplifiers proved to be quite unreliable since they overheated and started to shut down periodically after less than an hour or so of continuous usage, so I had to borrow some fans in a hurry. My PSU was sized for continuous usage and didnt's suffer that problem, though.
I would have preferred to use PA amplifiers, but market dictates the laws...
Yeah sorry for the post I just got extremely fed-up, I'm learning a lot just reading posts from you guys, because you KNOW more than me.. and I'm willing to accept that, I don't want to argue, I'm simply trying to get the facts out there and learn so that I can make the best decision. Excuse me if I try jump ahead of myself with my knowledge bank, okay?
Now..
How do you know that this amp has a 150A fuse rating? I've been searching all over the net for a fuse rating on it and haven't been able to find one! That would have saved me days of time as a START. I can't quite understand the facts behind this though. Please help me to do so. I'll be running my amp and sub at 2Ohm. Continuous RMS is 1500 for 2Ohm, maximum of 3000 at peaks.
150A x 13.8V = 2070W. That can't even REACH the maximum of 3000W at peaks, or am I wrong.. that's how I understand it anyway.
Okay about powering this setup with car batteries - if I use 2x Sealed Lead Acid Dry Cell Cyclic 200Ah batteries, wire them in parallel, being charged by a suitable battery charger, that should be good enough, right?
I have searched google for information capacitors but can't QUITE grasp the full idea of their function in a circuit. If someone could just put it out to me in simple terms that would be great.
Thanks
JohnnyJ
Now..
How do you know that this amp has a 150A fuse rating? I've been searching all over the net for a fuse rating on it and haven't been able to find one! That would have saved me days of time as a START. I can't quite understand the facts behind this though. Please help me to do so. I'll be running my amp and sub at 2Ohm. Continuous RMS is 1500 for 2Ohm, maximum of 3000 at peaks.
150A x 13.8V = 2070W. That can't even REACH the maximum of 3000W at peaks, or am I wrong.. that's how I understand it anyway.
Okay about powering this setup with car batteries - if I use 2x Sealed Lead Acid Dry Cell Cyclic 200Ah batteries, wire them in parallel, being charged by a suitable battery charger, that should be good enough, right?
I have searched google for information capacitors but can't QUITE grasp the full idea of their function in a circuit. If someone could just put it out to me in simple terms that would be great.
Thanks
JohnnyJ
Crude explanation of the capacitor in this circuit.
The capacitors are there to take care of peak demand, they charge and discharge far far more rapidly than a battery can, your battery can only supply x amps, though it can do so a long time. A capacitor can supply xxx amps, though not very long. The capacitor quickly recharges from the batteries after the peak.
The capacitors are there to take care of peak demand, they charge and discharge far far more rapidly than a battery can, your battery can only supply x amps, though it can do so a long time. A capacitor can supply xxx amps, though not very long. The capacitor quickly recharges from the batteries after the peak.
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