Killer home stereo setup
Johnny,
If we are now talking about a stereo designed for the home, your options are wide open. Comparing the acoustics and space restraints of a car compare to a house or room, speakers boxes and cabinets are designed differently because of the limitations in a car.
For example, in my car I have an Xtant 1000W RMS amp powering 3 JL Audio 10's which are in a 1.8 cubit ft. box +/-. In my house, my home theater system consists of a Yamaha 100W RMS X 5 ch. receiver, powering a 5 Cerwin Vega surrounds. Instead of the now traditional approach to having a separate powered subwoofer, all of my bass comes from the two front CV 3-way speakers with a 12" sub in each cabinet. Here's my point: the Cerwin Vega 12" speaker sits in a 2.5 cubit ft. cabinet with two 4" ports out the back. With the ports in the back, the bass reverbiates against the wall and fills the room with sound more richly. With only a solid 100W RMS per speaker, I can rattle the pictures on the 1st and 2nd floors, and send my daughter running.
I'm not recommending my equipment to you, but the point is that in general cabinets are larger for speakers for the home and the equipment is designed for the acoustics of the home setting. You can get the same earth shattering bass with a lot less power. So you can still set your sights high, but home stereos or PA systems don't have to have the same numbers as far as power goes.
Johnny,
If we are now talking about a stereo designed for the home, your options are wide open. Comparing the acoustics and space restraints of a car compare to a house or room, speakers boxes and cabinets are designed differently because of the limitations in a car.
For example, in my car I have an Xtant 1000W RMS amp powering 3 JL Audio 10's which are in a 1.8 cubit ft. box +/-. In my house, my home theater system consists of a Yamaha 100W RMS X 5 ch. receiver, powering a 5 Cerwin Vega surrounds. Instead of the now traditional approach to having a separate powered subwoofer, all of my bass comes from the two front CV 3-way speakers with a 12" sub in each cabinet. Here's my point: the Cerwin Vega 12" speaker sits in a 2.5 cubit ft. cabinet with two 4" ports out the back. With the ports in the back, the bass reverbiates against the wall and fills the room with sound more richly. With only a solid 100W RMS per speaker, I can rattle the pictures on the 1st and 2nd floors, and send my daughter running.
I'm not recommending my equipment to you, but the point is that in general cabinets are larger for speakers for the home and the equipment is designed for the acoustics of the home setting. You can get the same earth shattering bass with a lot less power. So you can still set your sights high, but home stereos or PA systems don't have to have the same numbers as far as power goes.
"Program" is like "music power", that is to say, much less on average than RMS sine wave, though it may have large peaks. Your playing music, not test tones. The voice coils will cook with a straight sine wave.
The Behringer can drive 2400 watts rms sine wave @ 4 ohms bridged, see this review with it driving a space heater and a toaster oven.
The Behringer can drive 2400 watts rms sine wave @ 4 ohms bridged, see this review with it driving a space heater and a toaster oven.
Yes, there are home subs that can put out mad bass, a question though, how much volume (liters/cu feet) can you use?
The Peavy is pro audio gear, they dont care about low bass, its low frequency response stops @50hz. What is meant by program is something along these lines:
These are 4 ohm speakers, and they can take almost 100V rms. This =~2400 watts. 100V rms means 200V peaks. This =~4800 watts. So youve got your 2400 watt amp cranked up all the way, but your playing music. The average power of music : peak is typically around 10:1, but is lower with more dynamic compression. This is pro gear its built with some margin. Somewhere I read 3:1 but Im not at all sure about that.
The Peavy is pro audio gear, they dont care about low bass, its low frequency response stops @50hz. What is meant by program is something along these lines:
These are 4 ohm speakers, and they can take almost 100V rms. This =~2400 watts. 100V rms means 200V peaks. This =~4800 watts. So youve got your 2400 watt amp cranked up all the way, but your playing music. The average power of music : peak is typically around 10:1, but is lower with more dynamic compression. This is pro gear its built with some margin. Somewhere I read 3:1 but Im not at all sure about that.
Maybe we should head in this direction now.
How big is the room that this system is going in (L x W x H)? This will help you decide how much subwoofer you need.
How much space can be taken up by the subwoofer enclosure? Are we talking about a 18 inch cube or something 2 feet by 3 feet by 6 feet?
How many sub enclosures total can you have or want?
Does the systen have to be portable or easily moved.
These are factors you need to consider before you decide what equipment to buy.
How big is the room that this system is going in (L x W x H)? This will help you decide how much subwoofer you need.
How much space can be taken up by the subwoofer enclosure? Are we talking about a 18 inch cube or something 2 feet by 3 feet by 6 feet?
How many sub enclosures total can you have or want?
Does the systen have to be portable or easily moved.
These are factors you need to consider before you decide what equipment to buy.
DC Dave said:
Well, seeing as I'm not in my new house yet, I'm not sure of my bedroom dimensions. It will be average or larger, say something like 6.5m x 6.5m x 2.8 .. or something like that? I really can't say for sure but lets work with those dimensions for now.
Subwoofer enclosure space - whatever really. I can fit as many sub enclosures as I want, will be HEAAAPS of free space. The system does NOT have to be easily moved as the sounds will just be staying in my room 98% of the time.
I want quality bass too, not just the vibration! I don't mean professional quality like concerts or whatever, but good decent quality - you know. Also, I don't have any sort of speakers yet either, so that will have to be shoved into the budget as well. I can possibly go like $250-300USD higher but will just have to save some more money, though I can do that in 2 weeks or so (with my part time work and full time studying) so it doesn't really bother me. So lets make the budget MAXIMUM $1750USD but preferably below that price tag.
Thanks so much,
JohnnyJ
Thing is just, I would LOVE to have this sub in my bedroom (the Pioneer TS-W5000SPL)... 2000rms continuous and 5000w peak would be absolutely wicked. I can get a box made for it to optimize it's performance according to my room's dimensions etc, and I think it's safe to say that it would then run any home sub into the ground, comparing if I got a home subwoofer in this budget, I'm not talking about the several thousand dollar home subs that have stupid crazy prices, but rather what I can get within my price range.
Also if I used a car sub and amp I can move them into a car if I wanted to at a later date, although.. I am a motorbike freak and don't plan on changing my daily transportation to the form of a CAR anyday soon
Would I be able to run the Pioneer car amp+sub and home studio speakers at the same time?
Cheers,
JohnnyJ
Also if I used a car sub and amp I can move them into a car if I wanted to at a later date, although.. I am a motorbike freak and don't plan on changing my daily transportation to the form of a CAR anyday soon
Would I be able to run the Pioneer car amp+sub and home studio speakers at the same time?
Cheers,
JohnnyJ
Pioneer claims only 88dB/W efficiency and these numbers are usually estimated under very favorable conditions.
Why so much interest in power ratings when these clumsy loudspeakers are so inefficient?
The amount of electrical power means nothing to sound because only a small fraction of that power is transferred into air as acoustic power, while the rest is just wasted as heat and mechanical displacement. That fraction is called 'efficiency' or 'sensitivity' and may be expressed as dB/W or as percentage. It may be measured in different conditions, so comparing values between different manufacturers may not yield reliable results.
Some equivalences:
112dB/W = 100% efficiency
103dB/W = 50% efficiency
106dB/W = 25% efficiency
103dB/W = 12.5% efficiency
100dB/W = 6,25% efficiency
97dB/W = 3,125% efficiency
94dB/W = 1,56% efficiency
91dB/W = 0,78% efficiency
88dB/W = 0,39% efficiency
(and so ...)
So a 88dB/W speaker used as a direct radiator in a plain closed or reflex box placed in the floor with 2000W input produces just 8W acoustic output.
In comparison, a bass horn placed in the floor with a conventional 15" or 18" loudspeaker features 100 to 106dB/W efficiency, so it transfers 8 watts to the air with just between 32W and 128W of electrical power input
Note that SPL competitions take advantage of the well known fact that the cabin of the car loads the loudspeaker at low frequencies like a horn, so efficiency is dramatically boosted by as much as 20dB, but a room is too big to produce that effect at useful frequencies.
In other words, outside a car these SPL loudspeakers sound tiny and are just junk, they are just wasted prime materials.
Why so much interest in power ratings when these clumsy loudspeakers are so inefficient?
The amount of electrical power means nothing to sound because only a small fraction of that power is transferred into air as acoustic power, while the rest is just wasted as heat and mechanical displacement. That fraction is called 'efficiency' or 'sensitivity' and may be expressed as dB/W or as percentage. It may be measured in different conditions, so comparing values between different manufacturers may not yield reliable results.
Some equivalences:
112dB/W = 100% efficiency
103dB/W = 50% efficiency
106dB/W = 25% efficiency
103dB/W = 12.5% efficiency
100dB/W = 6,25% efficiency
97dB/W = 3,125% efficiency
94dB/W = 1,56% efficiency
91dB/W = 0,78% efficiency
88dB/W = 0,39% efficiency
(and so ...)
So a 88dB/W speaker used as a direct radiator in a plain closed or reflex box placed in the floor with 2000W input produces just 8W acoustic output.
In comparison, a bass horn placed in the floor with a conventional 15" or 18" loudspeaker features 100 to 106dB/W efficiency, so it transfers 8 watts to the air with just between 32W and 128W of electrical power input
Note that SPL competitions take advantage of the well known fact that the cabin of the car loads the loudspeaker at low frequencies like a horn, so efficiency is dramatically boosted by as much as 20dB, but a room is too big to produce that effect at useful frequencies.
In other words, outside a car these SPL loudspeakers sound tiny and are just junk, they are just wasted prime materials.
Some designs sacrifice some effeciency to achieve lowers fs and be able to play lower, though not in the case of the Pioneer. Bass horn's can be VERY loud, but involve more carpentry and going low means large. Pro audio woofers tend to be used in horns.
Swept displacement, that is to say the area the speakers cone is able to move through before xmax is important in high power home subs. A cheap way to build a large TL or ported enclosure is to use sonotube concrete forms.
Here is a nice transmission line example.
Swept displacement, that is to say the area the speakers cone is able to move through before xmax is important in high power home subs. A cheap way to build a large TL or ported enclosure is to use sonotube concrete forms.
Here is a nice transmission line example.
Tweeker said:
How much will I NEED to do, is the question
To be honest I won't be doing it myself anywayz as I won't have the time and tools available to me, I will get someone else to do it for me, if you can just tell me what specifications I need to go by I think that would be a good start? What size enclosure are we talking about anyway?
Chur
JohnnyJ
I was asking to see if horns such as the LAB12 were feasable. Plans are readily available, but if someone else is doing them Id say they might not be in your budget. Horns will give the mind bending output your looking for, but involve vastly more carpentry than other enclosures.
Also thought suitable pro drivers were likely to be available to Kiwis, whereas I have no idea on other types.
Also thought suitable pro drivers were likely to be available to Kiwis, whereas I have no idea on other types.
I will have pretty much exactly the same stuff available to me except maybe some smaller american brands, I don't know, but other than that - I'm moving to aussie in a month, and that's when I'll be buying the equipment.
Please also remember I need to fit loudspeakers into my budget as well to accompany my bass item (whatever it may be), so yeah.
Thanks a mill
JohnnyJ
Please also remember I need to fit loudspeakers into my budget as well to accompany my bass item (whatever it may be), so yeah.
Thanks a mill
JohnnyJ
Heres the plans.
The driver. Can be had for under $150US.
A forum dedicated to them.
The driver. Can be had for under $150US.
A forum dedicated to them.
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Four in a driveway.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Whaaaaaat?
I thought you meant basic square woodwork like a sub box or something...
How do those work anyway? You're using terms I don't know.. HORN? DRIVER?
What are they (horns and drivers) and what is the advantage of using a 'horn'?
What sort of output will one of these "LAB12" horns give me anyway? Are they just the subwoofer or whatever, do I need to buy separate loudspeakers for the actual high notes or whatever?
Chur
I thought you meant basic square woodwork like a sub box or something...
How do those work anyway? You're using terms I don't know.. HORN? DRIVER?
What are they (horns and drivers) and what is the advantage of using a 'horn'?
What sort of output will one of these "LAB12" horns give me anyway? Are they just the subwoofer or whatever, do I need to buy separate loudspeakers for the actual high notes or whatever?
Chur
I also have to add that those enclosures do look like they will take up a lot of space, I will HAVE the space, but essentially don't really want to have that much space taken up by the sound equipment.
How will this Peavey SP 218 perform against one or two of those LAB12 horns? Better vibration? Worse?
I was thinking of maybe just waiting till beginning next year to buy myself sound equipment, because my budget is a bit low for the performance that I am after..
What about this:
Peavey SP 218 scroll down to about half way.
and these as loudspeakers:
Peavey SP 4 scroll down to just below half way.
Could I run 2 of the SP4's and a SP 218 with say, 4x Behringer Europower 2500 amps?
How would I power a setup like that anyway...?
[EDIT] Tweeker or any of you other gurus, do any of you guys have an instant messenger? MSN or ICQ maybe? I mainly use MSN but can get ICQ... Thanks.[/EDIT]
How will this Peavey SP 218 perform against one or two of those LAB12 horns? Better vibration? Worse?
I was thinking of maybe just waiting till beginning next year to buy myself sound equipment, because my budget is a bit low for the performance that I am after..
What about this:
Peavey SP 218 scroll down to about half way.
and these as loudspeakers:
Peavey SP 4 scroll down to just below half way.
Could I run 2 of the SP4's and a SP 218 with say, 4x Behringer Europower 2500 amps?
How would I power a setup like that anyway...?
[EDIT] Tweeker or any of you other gurus, do any of you guys have an instant messenger? MSN or ICQ maybe? I mainly use MSN but can get ICQ... Thanks.[/EDIT]
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