There are too many asterisks and other terms such as WTF, in these posts. At DIY Audio we don't allow this type of posting. Mainly its a matter of style. Ours is rather calm and boring and that's how we like it, because we think that that it is one of the reasons this site is so popular. Think of it like a journal with some decorum. Of course in every day conversation things are different, but this isn't that!
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Thank you for listening.....
Lengthy reply (part 2)
Another route:
If you want maximum power and keep batteries out of the house (which are not safe to have in the house), then you could go the power supply route. Here's the scenario:
Your amplifier's specs show, "Power source .. 14.4 V DC (10.8 — 15.1 V allowable)". You could run 15V to it. So, find an inexpensive source for 5V DC power supplies. Run 3 in series to get 15V. They need to be identical so that the amp output is the same. For example, let's say they are 5V, 50A. Three run in series would give you a net supply of 15V, 50A. Set up 3 banks of them, and put each bank in parallel with the other banks. That would give you 15V, 150A by using 9 of the inexpensive power supplies. Use properly rated cabling. For illustration purposes:
PS # 1 (+) to (-) of PS # 2; then (+) of PS # 2 to (-) of PS # 3
PS # 4 (+) to (-) of PS # 5; then (+) of PS # 5 to (-) of PS # 6
PS # 7 (+) to (-) of PS # 8; then (+) of PS # 8 to (-) of PS # 9 Then:
PS # 1 (-) to (-) of PS # 4; then (-) of PS # 4 to (-) of PS # 7
PS # 3 (+) to (+) of PS # 6; then (+) of PS # 6 to (+) of PS # 9 Then:
PS # 1 (-) to (-) of the amplifier, and PS # 3 (+) to (+) of the amplifier.
Note, if you would go the PC power supply route for the source of 5V power supplies, it is the red wire circuit for 5V, not the yellow 12V. Also, using those power supplies outside of a PC case could possible be a fire hazard. I'm not to be held responsible. Hehe
I think that I have explained most of your questions as thoroughly as possible, but in case I missed anything feel free to ask. I think that this is an interesting idea because I have played with it in the back of my head for years. I'm not at all trying to put myself out there as an expert, but another hobbyist. These are just thoughts based on the actual specs of the amplifier, my experience with batteries, charging circuits, electronics in general, and of course custom car stereo applications and installations. I hope that someone can add to this with their experience with higher amperage power supplies, as I just use one of my deep cycle marine batteries when I test an amp and subs.
Another route:
If you want maximum power and keep batteries out of the house (which are not safe to have in the house), then you could go the power supply route. Here's the scenario:
Your amplifier's specs show, "Power source .. 14.4 V DC (10.8 — 15.1 V allowable)". You could run 15V to it. So, find an inexpensive source for 5V DC power supplies. Run 3 in series to get 15V. They need to be identical so that the amp output is the same. For example, let's say they are 5V, 50A. Three run in series would give you a net supply of 15V, 50A. Set up 3 banks of them, and put each bank in parallel with the other banks. That would give you 15V, 150A by using 9 of the inexpensive power supplies. Use properly rated cabling. For illustration purposes:
PS # 1 (+) to (-) of PS # 2; then (+) of PS # 2 to (-) of PS # 3
PS # 4 (+) to (-) of PS # 5; then (+) of PS # 5 to (-) of PS # 6
PS # 7 (+) to (-) of PS # 8; then (+) of PS # 8 to (-) of PS # 9 Then:
PS # 1 (-) to (-) of PS # 4; then (-) of PS # 4 to (-) of PS # 7
PS # 3 (+) to (+) of PS # 6; then (+) of PS # 6 to (+) of PS # 9 Then:
PS # 1 (-) to (-) of the amplifier, and PS # 3 (+) to (+) of the amplifier.
Note, if you would go the PC power supply route for the source of 5V power supplies, it is the red wire circuit for 5V, not the yellow 12V. Also, using those power supplies outside of a PC case could possible be a fire hazard. I'm not to be held responsible. Hehe
I think that I have explained most of your questions as thoroughly as possible, but in case I missed anything feel free to ask. I think that this is an interesting idea because I have played with it in the back of my head for years. I'm not at all trying to put myself out there as an expert, but another hobbyist. These are just thoughts based on the actual specs of the amplifier, my experience with batteries, charging circuits, electronics in general, and of course custom car stereo applications and installations. I hope that someone can add to this with their experience with higher amperage power supplies, as I just use one of my deep cycle marine batteries when I test an amp and subs.
Get an old microwave,the biggest you can find,and build one of these:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~ptaylor/Electronics/MOTpowersupply/MOTPSpage.html
Parallel a couple batteries on it,and have fun.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~ptaylor/Electronics/MOTpowersupply/MOTPSpage.html
Parallel a couple batteries on it,and have fun.
Haha, I've done that before. I had 9 turns of 10 or 12 AWG wire (don't remember exactly) as the secondary, and a 5 amp breaker on the primary (120v). The breaker tripped after a few seconds of applied power, even with no load on the secondary. That gave me enough time to weld some pennies together. (I never got around to changing the breaker to a 10 amp)
Back on topic, I hooked up a 5 amp bridge rectifier and some caps to it, and I had a nice ~13.7v supply at no load. I hooked up a car amp to it for testing and got quite a bit of power out of it (something like 600 wrms), but only for a few seconds-until the 5A breaker tripped. In that time, the rectifier got pretty hot. I haven't done any long-term testing to see how much the MOT would heat up.
Supatech > Thanks a lot for your help. I think I will go with the PSU idea, not the car batteries. Though I do have some more questions about what power supplies to actually use!
...9 of them, 3 in series and then 3 banks paralleled, daaaayum.
If I get some at 350watt, and 5V each, I will need 6 to produce 15V at a current of 140A, right?, 15 * 140 = 2100. That would be able to supply 2100W max though, which is not really what I want, seeing as I need over 3000W at the peaks, with voltage drop across the wires or whatever and 80% efficiency, CORRECT? Please correct me if that is wrong. It doesn't really matter though because I will most likely just buy a suitable PSU (or multiple PSU's) and a capacitor that is suitable. I don't know if you can have 2 capacitors or whatever but if I need to I will get 2.
If I use a capacitor, what sort of power supply should I be looking for, would a 680watt ATX PSU be good enough? Also, if I used a 680watt PSU, what sort of capacitor rating would be best?
Please suggest some PSU models I can use and where I could buy them from, I have searched but can't find any AT, just ATX. However I think I WILL use an ATX power supply and a capacitor (or multiple capacitors). Otherwise I will use maybe 2 AT power supplies and a capacitor, it all depends on their power ratings though I suppose. Thanks so much again!!
Sorry for language in previous posts - didn't know that swearing isn't really allowed on this forum. My bad.
JohnnyJ
...9 of them, 3 in series and then 3 banks paralleled, daaaayum.
If I get some at 350watt, and 5V each, I will need 6 to produce 15V at a current of 140A, right?, 15 * 140 = 2100. That would be able to supply 2100W max though, which is not really what I want, seeing as I need over 3000W at the peaks, with voltage drop across the wires or whatever and 80% efficiency, CORRECT? Please correct me if that is wrong. It doesn't really matter though because I will most likely just buy a suitable PSU (or multiple PSU's) and a capacitor that is suitable. I don't know if you can have 2 capacitors or whatever but if I need to I will get 2.
If I use a capacitor, what sort of power supply should I be looking for, would a 680watt ATX PSU be good enough? Also, if I used a 680watt PSU, what sort of capacitor rating would be best?
Please suggest some PSU models I can use and where I could buy them from, I have searched but can't find any AT, just ATX. However I think I WILL use an ATX power supply and a capacitor (or multiple capacitors). Otherwise I will use maybe 2 AT power supplies and a capacitor, it all depends on their power ratings though I suppose. Thanks so much again!!
Sorry for language in previous posts - didn't know that swearing isn't really allowed on this forum. My bad.
JohnnyJ
IIRC, ATX power supplies will work. There might be a way to modify them, but I don't know. Simply put, inorder for them to power up and remain on they need to be connected to a motherboard. AT power supplies are not like this. If I'm wrong, someone correct me.
Places to look for AT power supplies are PC surplus stores, and places like Ebay.
Places to look for AT power supplies are PC surplus stores, and places like Ebay.
PC PSU's
Johnny,
The only difficulty with using computer PSU's is that the total power rating is a combination of the 5V supply AND the 12V supply. You had mentioned using ATX power supplies. They have 5V, 12V, and 3.3V sections.
For discussion purposes, let's establish a baseline. Let's use this $18 550W ATX PSU:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817163028
Here are the DC outputs: +3.3V@28A, +5@40A, +12V@20A, -5V@1.0A, -12V@0.5A, +5VSB@2.0A
The +5V section delivers 40A. Three in series, 3 banks in parallel, gives you 15V and 120A. If you wanted to go all out, add another bank (which probably wouldn't be necessary, considering the average amp draw of the amplifier), and that would give you 150A. For all four banks, you'd buy 12 PSU's for a total of $216 plus shipping. You wouldn't even need a capacitor with that total supply. The only problem is that Newegg.com doesn't ship internationally. Surely you could find another company that would ship internationally.
When you mentioned using less power supplies and a capacitor or two, that is possible. The thing that you have to remember is that a capacitor in this setting stores and supplies its energy in bursts. The theory behind using it in a car stereo setting is the following:
Without a capacitor, you have the car battery that supplies 12V +/- to the complete electrical system of the car. When the car is running, the alternator supplies 14.4V at an average of 70A - 85A depending on the car. That amperage has to run the spark to the motor, charge the battery, and supply any lights or accessories. Most capacitors that are designed for use in a car are 16V or 20V. It will only charge to the voltage that it is charged with - 14.4V from the alternator.
Most alternators are designed to supply enough amperage to power the car and its accessories, with little extra for additional accessories (high-powered car stereos). (There are graphs that show the benefits of the capacitors, although I couldn't find one quickly on the web.) When the car is running, the alternator under load may only supply a constant 13.5V to the stereo. That's why a capacitor is charged before it is put in use. So the capacitor supplies the extra volts and amperage that the amplifier needs to make full power, and then recharges itself quickly in between extreme loads.
So the conclusion to this is that you can supply 15V with 150A or less to assure that the power will never dip, or 15V with less amperage and a capacitor of 1.5F or more so that it supplements the extra volts and amps in case of brownout (max load).
JohnnyJ said:
Johnny,
The only difficulty with using computer PSU's is that the total power rating is a combination of the 5V supply AND the 12V supply. You had mentioned using ATX power supplies. They have 5V, 12V, and 3.3V sections.
For discussion purposes, let's establish a baseline. Let's use this $18 550W ATX PSU:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817163028
Here are the DC outputs: +3.3V@28A, +5@40A, +12V@20A, -5V@1.0A, -12V@0.5A, +5VSB@2.0A
The +5V section delivers 40A. Three in series, 3 banks in parallel, gives you 15V and 120A. If you wanted to go all out, add another bank (which probably wouldn't be necessary, considering the average amp draw of the amplifier), and that would give you 150A. For all four banks, you'd buy 12 PSU's for a total of $216 plus shipping. You wouldn't even need a capacitor with that total supply. The only problem is that Newegg.com doesn't ship internationally. Surely you could find another company that would ship internationally.
When you mentioned using less power supplies and a capacitor or two, that is possible. The thing that you have to remember is that a capacitor in this setting stores and supplies its energy in bursts. The theory behind using it in a car stereo setting is the following:
Without a capacitor, you have the car battery that supplies 12V +/- to the complete electrical system of the car. When the car is running, the alternator supplies 14.4V at an average of 70A - 85A depending on the car. That amperage has to run the spark to the motor, charge the battery, and supply any lights or accessories. Most capacitors that are designed for use in a car are 16V or 20V. It will only charge to the voltage that it is charged with - 14.4V from the alternator.
Most alternators are designed to supply enough amperage to power the car and its accessories, with little extra for additional accessories (high-powered car stereos). (There are graphs that show the benefits of the capacitors, although I couldn't find one quickly on the web.) When the car is running, the alternator under load may only supply a constant 13.5V to the stereo. That's why a capacitor is charged before it is put in use. So the capacitor supplies the extra volts and amperage that the amplifier needs to make full power, and then recharges itself quickly in between extreme loads.
So the conclusion to this is that you can supply 15V with 150A or less to assure that the power will never dip, or 15V with less amperage and a capacitor of 1.5F or more so that it supplements the extra volts and amps in case of brownout (max load).
I have had to replace the alternator in my Mitsu Diamante which supplies 110A ... it died.
The culprit was a PPI PC2350 amp and a 1F cap supply... I do not listen to the head pounding stuff anymore and the second Alternator is fine.... it takes a few "accidents" before one realizes that taking things to the nth level is not always good....
The culprit was a PPI PC2350 amp and a 1F cap supply... I do not listen to the head pounding stuff anymore and the second Alternator is fine.... it takes a few "accidents" before one realizes that taking things to the nth level is not always good....
Loial said:
Or you could simply use 7 of them, connect all 12V:s in parallell, and get 140 Amps
Not to mention that it is a lot easier to hook up PSU:s in parallell, than to mess with them in series.
The only problem with that is that he want full power out of his amplifier. For that he needs at least 14.4V, not only 12V.
The difference won't be audible, and 15V is in my opinion dangerously close to the amps maximum voltage of 15,1 Volts.
Computer PSU:s aren't the best, and tolerances can be up to +/- 10%, with a ripple of over 100mV:s. Suddenly this 15V could be 16,5 Volts and above. I still say go for the 12V, better be safe than sorry...
Many PSU:s can deliever nearly the same current at 12V as 5V, some even more, making the 12V option far cheaper.
EDIT
A quick compare of 350-500W computer PSU:s:
All the PSU:s have higher current rating at the 12V output, than the 5V. 5V ranging from 21 to 30 Amps, and the 12V ranging 25 to 35 amps.
1000w 66A 12V PC PSU
Really though, you might want to look for something like the Behringer Europower 2500 Amp, running one voice coil off each channel it would give you 1500watts all day no problem just loafing along. Can be had in US for $270 shipped, but I dont know foreign availibility.
Really though, you might want to look for something like the Behringer Europower 2500 Amp, running one voice coil off each channel it would give you 1500watts all day no problem just loafing along. Can be had in US for $270 shipped, but I dont know foreign availibility.
I have to agree with everyone about the fan noise. I was not recommending that it is a good solution, but it is at least better than using car batteries or deep cycle batteries. Simply put, Johnny was asking for a way to get maximum power without the PS limiting the amplifier, and what I presented was two options that would do what he was asking.
Now Johnny, I did a search to compare various 680watt PC ATX PSU's, big name and no-name. They all only supply between 38A - 50A for 12V, and doesn't offer voltage supplies higher then 12V. Surely, a 1.5F or 2F capacitor would help supply some of the extra energy when the single PSU hits max load, but you still wouldn't reach full power out of the amp like you had originally requested. It would be good enough for most people wanting a high power system, and audibly you probably wouldn't notice much difference even if you worked maximum power because of of the acoustics of being in a home setting.
JohnnyJ said:
Now Johnny, I did a search to compare various 680watt PC ATX PSU's, big name and no-name. They all only supply between 38A - 50A for 12V, and doesn't offer voltage supplies higher then 12V. Surely, a 1.5F or 2F capacitor would help supply some of the extra energy when the single PSU hits max load, but you still wouldn't reach full power out of the amp like you had originally requested. It would be good enough for most people wanting a high power system, and audibly you probably wouldn't notice much difference even if you worked maximum power because of of the acoustics of being in a home setting.
I have been wondering about the amp.. trust me.. BUT - this amp is prefect for the sub, I don't think there is another amp out there in the same price class, that will give this performance? I don't mind if it is not a car amplifier, just any amplifier with the same or better performance!
While on the topic, is there any home studio subwoofers that can produce this sort of power/bass for up to $550[ish]USD?
Once again I'm not the expert, you guys are, but judging from hours of surfing the net on the most powerful and - most expensive even amp sites, I can't find anything that has the same or better performance than the Pioneer PRS-D5000SPL.
I'm not sure what this amp costs in the US or anywhere else in the world, but just to play around with numbers a bit, say I had $700USD, what amplifiers would be suitable for my sub? Which will give either similar or better performance than the Pioneer amp that is. Sub can handle maximum 5000W, 2000RMS continuous, only 2Ohm / 8Ohm input - I think, if I'm wrong please correct me.
Thanks again,
JohnnyJ~
While on the topic, is there any home studio subwoofers that can produce this sort of power/bass for up to $550[ish]USD?
Once again I'm not the expert, you guys are, but judging from hours of surfing the net on the most powerful and - most expensive even amp sites, I can't find anything that has the same or better performance than the Pioneer PRS-D5000SPL.
I'm not sure what this amp costs in the US or anywhere else in the world, but just to play around with numbers a bit, say I had $700USD, what amplifiers would be suitable for my sub? Which will give either similar or better performance than the Pioneer amp that is. Sub can handle maximum 5000W, 2000RMS continuous, only 2Ohm / 8Ohm input - I think, if I'm wrong please correct me.
Thanks again,
JohnnyJ~
I just found this: http://www.zzounds.com/item--PEVSP218
Features
Two 18 inch Pro Rider Black Widow woofers with Kevlar /carbon fiber cones and field-replaceable baskets, flat-wound 4 inch voice coils, and cast-frame baskets
Frequency response: 51 Hz - 300 Hz
10 dB point: 36 Hz
Sensitivity: 100 dB (1W/1m)
Power handling: 2400 Watts program, 4800 Watts peak
4 Ohms
Baltic birch enclosure
Using that as an example, would that be the sort of specifications I should be looking for if buying a home sub?
Instead of buying all this power supply, etc for the pioneer amp & sub, I will sell this amp + sub. Regardless of whether the product be car audio or not, what equipment will give me bass in the area of 1600-2000RMS CONTINUOUS and up to 4000Watt+ peak? I have about $1450USD to spend in total - for all the equipment, whatever equipment I buy must be a complete setup ready to pump when I buy the items and wire them up.
So basically, I am asking you guys, what equipment can/should I buy that will give me that sort of bass in my bedroom. NOTE: I don't have any equipment right now, nothing. So whatever equipment is suggested should be a full setup, I don't mind if it is (as an example) something like a dvd player for the receiver (to play CD's through), a PA amp and PA sub. Or whatever, I really don't care, I just need equipment in that budget, that will allow me to insert a cd into something, and have it play my hip-hop/low bass beats with that caliber bass. "THAT" caliber bass being bass that will make stuff vibrate in my room to the point that it feels like cracking the walls. There it is, that's exactly what I'm after, the closer I get to that goal, the better, if not reachable in my budget it's cool, I just want the best for my money.
BTW: Does 2400W program mean the same as 2400WRMS CONTINUOUS in car subs? Or what?
Thanks heaps!!
JohnnyJ
Features
Two 18 inch Pro Rider Black Widow woofers with Kevlar /carbon fiber cones and field-replaceable baskets, flat-wound 4 inch voice coils, and cast-frame baskets
Frequency response: 51 Hz - 300 Hz
10 dB point: 36 Hz
Sensitivity: 100 dB (1W/1m)
Power handling: 2400 Watts program, 4800 Watts peak
4 Ohms
Baltic birch enclosure
Using that as an example, would that be the sort of specifications I should be looking for if buying a home sub?
Instead of buying all this power supply, etc for the pioneer amp & sub, I will sell this amp + sub. Regardless of whether the product
So basically, I am asking you guys, what equipment can/should I buy that will give me that sort of bass in my bedroom. NOTE: I don't have any equipment right now, nothing. So whatever equipment is suggested should be a full setup, I don't mind if it is (as an example) something like a dvd player for the receiver (to play CD's through), a PA amp and PA sub. Or whatever, I really don't care, I just need equipment in that budget, that will allow me to insert a cd into something, and have it play my hip-hop/low bass beats with that caliber bass. "THAT" caliber bass being bass that will make stuff vibrate in my room to the point that it feels like cracking the walls. There it is, that's exactly what I'm after, the closer I get to that goal, the better, if not reachable in my budget it's cool, I just want the best for my money.
BTW: Does 2400W program mean the same as 2400WRMS CONTINUOUS in car subs? Or what?
Thanks heaps!!
JohnnyJ
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