Hello Brains-Trust!
We are looking for your input or suggestions on an interesting project.
In Melbourne Australia, we are building an 'Art Car', and want to build the best quality sound we can for it.
We play dance music.
We have some limitations, and some interesting characteristics:
I would love to have two 50 degree two way unity/synergy type horns up top, but I fear the sub will have to carry too much of the spectrum, or worse we will end up with a big hole in the mid bass.
The tapped horns in the 3D sketch are not to scale. The image is to sell the idea to the crew...
BUDGET: We will find the money that's not a big issue, we want to focus on optimal audiophile class sound for now.
We are looking for your input or suggestions on an interesting project.
In Melbourne Australia, we are building an 'Art Car', and want to build the best quality sound we can for it.
We play dance music.
We have some limitations, and some interesting characteristics:
- The vehicle moves around, well it's a vehicle after all!
- People need to be able to stand/dance on the subs.
- The top end housings cant be too big, around the size of a Mackie or RCF compact self powered speaker.
- It needs to serve around 300 people, so 120db upwards would be great, the more the better.
- It needs to be water resistant as it is outdoors.
- Our max Generator power is 6KVA
I would love to have two 50 degree two way unity/synergy type horns up top, but I fear the sub will have to carry too much of the spectrum, or worse we will end up with a big hole in the mid bass.
The tapped horns in the 3D sketch are not to scale. The image is to sell the idea to the crew...
BUDGET: We will find the money that's not a big issue, we want to focus on optimal audiophile class sound for now.
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I like the sound of this, what is it being used for? Personally I'm interested in battery powered portable sound
A few points to note, having helped with street parties in Sydney (a few Reclaim the Lanes events drawing 500-1000 people) and building my own compact portable system:
If you want the cart to be stable enough for people to dance on, you'll need to get the wheels wide apart but narrow enough to move up footpath ramps if need be (maybe 700mm) and possibly make the base as such the subs sit "cradled" close to axle level, or use low profile wheels to keep COG low - good quality solid castor wheels worked for big heavy rigs, inflatable wheels suffer a bit with weight.
Getting the tops high is ideal, but may affect balance of the cart - again needing wide wheelbase
Requirement for "compact" tops may rule out synergy horns, both for size and weight. Perhaps look at a bunch of 10"+horn tops, maybe with neo drivers if you can budget for them
Also think about how you approach bass - is chasing anything lower than 50hz practical, for outdoors? Probably not.
Will it be pushed or powered? Make sure you account for handles or the like and ensure there's enough space to move around the carts to control them
For reference, this was a "brute force" approach using PA gear on hand. Would definitely do it differently if you're starting from scratch...
5KVA generator in the DJ console, heavy amp rack, 2x 18" subs and a 15"+horn top per cart. Took 6-8 people to move, and didn't like hills or rough surfaces!
"audiophile" requirement is a bit leap, as is the big budget... there are a heap of compromises in making a rolling rig, don't get caught up in pure sound and worry more about practical issues. Greatest sounding system is no good if it can't be moved, or worse you run out of money 3/4 through!
Throwing around ideas... a pair of 15" tapped horns per cart, and 2x 10"+horn on poles, could be a good middle ground between loud and lightweight. SS15 or the like for bass, and basic reflex design for top. Class D amps, of course.
Anyway I'm interested in seeing this project progress... ensure you post updates
A few points to note, having helped with street parties in Sydney (a few Reclaim the Lanes events drawing 500-1000 people) and building my own compact portable system:
If you want the cart to be stable enough for people to dance on, you'll need to get the wheels wide apart but narrow enough to move up footpath ramps if need be (maybe 700mm) and possibly make the base as such the subs sit "cradled" close to axle level, or use low profile wheels to keep COG low - good quality solid castor wheels worked for big heavy rigs, inflatable wheels suffer a bit with weight.
Getting the tops high is ideal, but may affect balance of the cart - again needing wide wheelbase
Requirement for "compact" tops may rule out synergy horns, both for size and weight. Perhaps look at a bunch of 10"+horn tops, maybe with neo drivers if you can budget for them
Also think about how you approach bass - is chasing anything lower than 50hz practical, for outdoors? Probably not.
Will it be pushed or powered? Make sure you account for handles or the like and ensure there's enough space to move around the carts to control them
For reference, this was a "brute force" approach using PA gear on hand. Would definitely do it differently if you're starting from scratch...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
5KVA generator in the DJ console, heavy amp rack, 2x 18" subs and a 15"+horn top per cart. Took 6-8 people to move, and didn't like hills or rough surfaces!
"audiophile" requirement is a bit leap, as is the big budget... there are a heap of compromises in making a rolling rig, don't get caught up in pure sound and worry more about practical issues. Greatest sounding system is no good if it can't be moved, or worse you run out of money 3/4 through!
Throwing around ideas... a pair of 15" tapped horns per cart, and 2x 10"+horn on poles, could be a good middle ground between loud and lightweight. SS15 or the like for bass, and basic reflex design for top. Class D amps, of course.
Anyway I'm interested in seeing this project progress... ensure you post updates
Cheers bitSmasher!
This feedback is invaluable.
The ArtCar is to be used at festivals. The chassis has been made by an F1 engineer and taken out successfully a few times. The rubber tires help with suspension quite well.
TAPPED HORNS
At this stage we are looking at using two tapped horns per side due to the efficiency gains.
I've succumb to the reality that we don't have the space or the power to reproduce below 40hz to any noticeable volume.
This is the driver we are currently considering:
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 15HP1060
It is noted that the driver is treated to be outdoor resistant, water specifically. (it also comes with a warning it contains carcinogenic chemicals....hmmm)
We are about to start modelling and get an idea about how far up they are going to reach. Looking at models so far, 40hz to 200hz looks realistic. As the Freq rises the TH's start ringing so the bandwidth is limited, the trade-off of the TH.
TOP END
With the tapped horn we need to fill in over 200hz. As bitSmasher pointed out a Unit/Synergy horn would thus need to be large. The Pictures above denote our initial ideal horn, the Danley SM60, but it is going to be fairly impossible to reproduce one successfully at home due to the unique drivers and method of tapping the mids.
A direct radiator seems the most practical, but I am a bit of a fancy pants, and want to build something both impressive and challenging. The easy way out for me is just not appealing....
This feedback is invaluable.
The ArtCar is to be used at festivals. The chassis has been made by an F1 engineer and taken out successfully a few times. The rubber tires help with suspension quite well.
TAPPED HORNS
At this stage we are looking at using two tapped horns per side due to the efficiency gains.
I've succumb to the reality that we don't have the space or the power to reproduce below 40hz to any noticeable volume.
This is the driver we are currently considering:
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 15HP1060
It is noted that the driver is treated to be outdoor resistant, water specifically. (it also comes with a warning it contains carcinogenic chemicals....hmmm)
We are about to start modelling and get an idea about how far up they are going to reach. Looking at models so far, 40hz to 200hz looks realistic. As the Freq rises the TH's start ringing so the bandwidth is limited, the trade-off of the TH.
TOP END
With the tapped horn we need to fill in over 200hz. As bitSmasher pointed out a Unit/Synergy horn would thus need to be large. The Pictures above denote our initial ideal horn, the Danley SM60, but it is going to be fairly impossible to reproduce one successfully at home due to the unique drivers and method of tapping the mids.
A direct radiator seems the most practical, but I am a bit of a fancy pants, and want to build something both impressive and challenging. The easy way out for me is just not appealing....
Honda EU - I think it's a 5KVA beast but all the amps are old Class A/B in that rig so everything's heavy and inefficient
If you're starting from scratch, best to use efficient/light switching amps and a smaller generator - the EU2000 are compact and light
Get a light switching amplifier and a voltage surge and you'll be buying a new amplifier. Use an iron transformer capable of 50 Hz (not just 60) and class H. They're efficient enough and more tolerant of the **** that happens. Not to mention serviceable if you do manage to blow it.
We've currently decided that one of Xoc1's TH18 on each side will suit nicely.
Now we have the challenge of obtaining a driver in Australia.
There is a distributor for Precision Devices here, and they have 1850's in stock.
PD.1850/2
I'll have my first go at modelling this driver in the TH18 in horn resp.
Fs 33.15 Hz
Re 5.22 Ω
Qms 15.42
Qes 0.24
Qts 0.24
Le 1.33 mh
L2 2.45 mh
R2 5.3 Ω
Vas 203.84 litres
Mms 215.24 g
Sd 1164.16 cm2
Cms 107 µm/N
BL 30.99 T/m
Xmax 11.05 mm
Vd 1.28 litres
Ref. Efficiency 2.88%
Now we have the challenge of obtaining a driver in Australia.
There is a distributor for Precision Devices here, and they have 1850's in stock.
PD.1850/2
I'll have my first go at modelling this driver in the TH18 in horn resp.
Fs 33.15 Hz
Re 5.22 Ω
Qms 15.42
Qes 0.24
Qts 0.24
Le 1.33 mh
L2 2.45 mh
R2 5.3 Ω
Vas 203.84 litres
Mms 215.24 g
Sd 1164.16 cm2
Cms 107 µm/N
BL 30.99 T/m
Xmax 11.05 mm
Vd 1.28 litres
Ref. Efficiency 2.88%
Here's an example of the amp we have been looking at for the TH18 sub's.
Connexelectronic
A 1000w version we be good. Suggestions welcome.
Connexelectronic
A 1000w version we be good. Suggestions welcome.
http://www.china-sanway.com/Product.asp?BigClassName=FP-new series Switching Power Amplifier
Fin has just put me onto these... The FP14000 in particular. About $800 apperantly. Hard to beat for that much power.
Anybody have any comments on them?
Fin has just put me onto these... The FP14000 in particular. About $800 apperantly. Hard to beat for that much power.
Anybody have any comments on them?
Lots of people have used them with good outcomes. There have been a few with bad issues but for the most part Sanway has come through with help on how to repair their amp. And from what I can tell the quality has gotten better since the HT crowd has heard about them a few years ago. I dont believe there were many problems with the Fp14000 240Vac versions. More so the 110Vac versions.
If you want to know more you can read here:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...237-lab-gruppen-fp14000-clone-amplifiers.html
If you want anything from 18 Sound send an email to Ashley Krix at Krix speakers. I always deal with him and they are awesome on price. I will be ordering either a 21" or pair of 18" from him in about 1.5months. Because they ship sea freight you can get your shipping with their products for much less. BUT you have to wait longer than normal air freight. BUT I do like the fact that they are 5 mins down the road from me.
The 18 Sound 18LW2500 works great in the TH18. And with 14mm Xmax is a GREAT value in my eyes.
If you want to know more you can read here:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...237-lab-gruppen-fp14000-clone-amplifiers.html
If you want anything from 18 Sound send an email to Ashley Krix at Krix speakers. I always deal with him and they are awesome on price. I will be ordering either a 21" or pair of 18" from him in about 1.5months. Because they ship sea freight you can get your shipping with their products for much less. BUT you have to wait longer than normal air freight. BUT I do like the fact that they are 5 mins down the road from me.
The 18 Sound 18LW2500 works great in the TH18. And with 14mm Xmax is a GREAT value in my eyes.
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All good news. Fin and I are handy enough with electronics to keep it working. All the equipment will be protected from the elements and electrically/ mechanically isolated, life on an art car at a festival can be harsh though.
I'll contact Krix shortly and see what the ETA is. Don't think we need the drivers in a rush.
Do you know a rough price for any of the 18" drivers?
Thanks for your input on all this.
Dean
I'll contact Krix shortly and see what the ETA is. Don't think we need the drivers in a rush.
Do you know a rough price for any of the 18" drivers?
Thanks for your input on all this.
Dean
Including shipping the cost per driver for the PD/1850 is about $950 AUD.
Thank you so much for the heads up! I am going to look into the 18Sound drivers.
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