Still following this thread for more than a decade. My MKT5s are still in the centre of listening while other speakers comes and goes.
On to the next project after recently finished a total remodelling of a pair of Rauna Leira, and a pair of Rauna Vale. Both really good old (70s and 80s) designs from the late Bo Hanssons hands.
This time it will be a 2-way tapered MLTL designed by me inspired from the Rauna Leira, and with a finalized design by Paul Kittinger.
Tweeter: Either the D2608/91300+WG used in the Elsinores (I have two pairs of spare WGs), or the Monacor DT-300+WG
Xo: ~2 kHz
Midwoofer: Either the SB16NRX2C35 or the SB17MRC35 used here as the successor of the SB17NRXC35. Both measuring about the same and works out almost exactly the same in my design (on the graphs). I haven´t come close to a distorsion diagram, comparing reviews or else so I cant really decide which one to use.
Joe (or someone else that has compared) you did select the MRC before the NRX2 as the successor for the NRX. What was the reason, any sound advantages etc?
On to the next project after recently finished a total remodelling of a pair of Rauna Leira, and a pair of Rauna Vale. Both really good old (70s and 80s) designs from the late Bo Hanssons hands.
This time it will be a 2-way tapered MLTL designed by me inspired from the Rauna Leira, and with a finalized design by Paul Kittinger.
Tweeter: Either the D2608/91300+WG used in the Elsinores (I have two pairs of spare WGs), or the Monacor DT-300+WG
Xo: ~2 kHz
Midwoofer: Either the SB16NRX2C35 or the SB17MRC35 used here as the successor of the SB17NRXC35. Both measuring about the same and works out almost exactly the same in my design (on the graphs). I haven´t come close to a distorsion diagram, comparing reviews or else so I cant really decide which one to use.
Joe (or someone else that has compared) you did select the MRC before the NRX2 as the successor for the NRX. What was the reason, any sound advantages etc?
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I visited SB Acoustics in Herning, Denmark, late 2017 and was shown at that time the replacement NRX2 by designer Ulrik Schmidt and I thought this was going to be a good thing. Except when it came out, it cannot be used as a near direct replacement. Basically it comes down to the higher mass of the cone, too low sensitivity as a result and also would need a much larger box with different tuning. Then I looked at the MFC version of the driver, got a sample and tested it and despite slightly higher mass than original NRX, it hardly shows up - and the tuning of the box can stay as is. Only a few changes to the crossover and all good.
Sound wise, I am using the MFC in mine right now and I don't hear a huge difference and it does not sound like a downgrade, so very pleased with that. But I have to use the MFC as people drop in and need to hear it with the currently available driver. But I could live with both NRX and MFC versions. What is important is that the fundamental lovable 'character' of the Elsinores is there, no matter which driver.
But I could live with both NRX and MFC versions. What is important is that the fundamental lovable 'character' of the Elsinores is there, no matter which driver.
Unfortunately I didn’t wait until the MK6 came, but my MK5 are fine too.
Seem that it is the MFC I will go for.
Really like the D2608 with the WG in the Elsinores. Might be my pick for the new design too. Have made anything with the DT-300 +WG?
Odd that you should ask that, take a look at this:
For those who don't know, this is the Monacor DT300 tweeter plus its optional waveguide.
The D2608 plus waveguide is even better.
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Interesting
I haven’t heard much and seen many reviews about it. Although I read an interesting story from Troels Gravesen regarding it. “D2608+wg is even better”, how would you define “better” in this case?
Ok,
Troels gave it comments “being in and a part of the music”. Which are quite good words from a guy who has been around for a while and generally well renowned.
Nice words, maybe I can put meat on the bones on that one.
Troels had a pair of my waveguides for a short time and believe he told me did some tests on it. The pair belonged to a friend of mine who lives not far from Troels. I was there in Aarhus in 2017 and visited Troels twice.
Some use waveguides to lower the crossover, but I use them in order to reduce distortion and I resist a lower crossover frequency. There are technical advantages to the former, but I still prefer the latter.
There is also something to be said that waveguides as used in the Elsinores actually give a more consistent radiating impedance through the crossover region, where you usually go from a large area midrange driver to a small size dome tweeter. That is a potential disruption right there. The waveguide makes the dome look much larger in an acoustic load sense, instead of looking like a 1" diameter tweeter, it becomes acoustically more like a 2" dome tweeter. This matches up better with the midrange. It also helps the blending of the drivers, to make the crossover imperceptible. The speaker designer Brad Serhan said I was good at making the "stitch" just right. That is high praise indeed.
Dave, they are long gone, also I shortly after this pic was taken, replaced the B200 with the Peerless 8" HDS. "C'est la vie"
I guess you mean that Troels had a pair of the Elsinore WGs. They are good and I think I bought 4 or 5 pairs at the time. Still two pairs in the basement. Hard not to like.
To cite Troels regarding the DT-300 (and C17) with WG and the mod (removing oil etc) with only a 1th order xo: "The C17/DT300 is very much a "window to the music" rather than a speaker that "creates music in a room" like the PMS with its wide dispersion and ease of placement."
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Nice work, I do like your method better than most all I've seen, although I still prefer a measured average sensitivity over a speaker or driver's intended usage. I'm a measurement guy too
And I'd say we are both tilting at mindmills lol
Me, in the prosound world where so much emphasis is on obtainable max SPL, as it pretty much sets the stage for how big a show can be done.
So the sensitivity spec is extrapolated up to full AES power handling and folks buy/argue over that....all the while ignoring if sensitivity was correct, if there's power handling across the entire spectrum, degree of power compression, and distortion increases. Trivial considerations haha.
You, in the esoteric home hi-fi world where folks will debate effects of interconnect wire direction
I empathize with your cause however; I just don't have the science to discern whether it matters or not. It seems to me whether I'm hearing voltage of current, I'm still hearing just one sine wave, not two out of phase.. Do I care if I'm hearing voltage or current?
And most of my work/experiments/builds, keep showing me how little of what we think matters, actually matters.
I'm down to freq response, phase, and power response (pattern control)...and the only thing I'm dead sure about them, is that they all need to be smooth....
Your 91dB calibration setup/plot does indeed look pretty neat.
And yeah, pink noise and RTA's are no way to do sensitivity, especially indoors.
Must say though, I'm not really a fan of RTA's for anything .....
I just use a mic calibrator, put processing in place, and then measure each driver section's sensitivity via the method previously described, outdoors.
Must do it driver by driver as all my builds are multi-channel active, FIR processed.
Below is a 3-way synergy with drivers spanning these ranges:
Mid 100-650Hz, HF 650 to 3k2 Hz, and VHF 3k2 Hz to 20k.
2.83V @ 1 m sensitivities, off a high deck outdoors are: (whatever the heck space you'ld call that )
Mid 105.3dB
HF 110.4dB
Vhf 106.6dB
I know sensitivities like that scream PA, but I've found the cleanliness and dynamic headroom at everyday home listening levels, make lower sensitivity/ lower efficiency speakers, sound quite weak and constrained.
I'll say it too, Pretty Neat, eh ?!
And here they are. I planned the end of carpentry work at the end of May and succeeded. Today I made my children's day and connected all the speakers and set them in the room. Oh ... I didn't expect that. Each of them is 70kg. And this is because it is a box in a box. The original size of the casing received additional support from plywood panels. The edges have been chamfered and the front is sized according to the design. The steering knuckle is closed with a lid on the back. BR got the right housing to connect to the cover. I am a master of complicating and adding work as much as possible. But I have already reached the shore. Working in spare time from mid-January today has a finale. It's time for music. Thank you Joe, it's a great project.
In the background my kits have been playing for me since 1997. I like them very much so they will still play for me. Probably in a different space.
In the background my kits have been playing for me since 1997. I like them very much so they will still play for me. Probably in a different space.
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I have been slowly gathering all the parts for my build. Looking at the woofers today I discovered one of them has a imperfection to it. Might be a bit hard to see on the picture, but it looks a bit like a paper fold in real life. What do you guys think, is it still usable or should I try find a replacement?
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I'm sorry if this gets too off topic. I and some others too, don't seem to like the DT300 in general, and especially with the WG300 waveguide.
I built the C17's, and have spent a lot of time refining them. I finally concluded the DT300 had to go. I first tried Peerless DX25TG59, and it was a lot better in the mids, but treble was not to my liking. Replaced it with the XT25BG60, and that one made me happy (in the WG300). XO is around 2k and phase tracking is really good over a wide range. I also impedance corrected the woofers resonance, and that was a nice improvement too. I have simulations and schematics etc if you're interested.
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I think we´re about to go faaaar off topic. Sorry to hear that the C17 wasn´t of your liking. But yes I am interested in the results you have.
My choice other than the DT300 is the D2608/91300 as they already have been proven by Joe that they work fine (in the Elsinores) with the SB17MFC35 which I will use. The combination with XT25BG60 haven´t seen.
My choice other than the DT300 is the D2608/91300 as they already have been proven by Joe that they work fine (in the Elsinores) with the SB17MFC35 which I will use. The combination with XT25BG60 haven´t seen.
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