Does any-one know the trade-names or chemical-constituent types of the substances that manufacturers use as coatings for their cones and/or soft domes to damp the amplitude of resonances ?
Eg:- such as SEAS use for their CA series of coated paper cone drivers ?
I refer specifically to substances that remain flexible and not to those which dry to semi-rigid , such as the varnishes do {and of which Dammar may be one , though I have not yet seen dammar} .
Eg:- such as SEAS use for their CA series of coated paper cone drivers ?
I refer specifically to substances that remain flexible and not to those which dry to semi-rigid , such as the varnishes do {and of which Dammar may be one , though I have not yet seen dammar} .
From what I've read here manufacturers don't reveal this kind of information - trade secret basically.
I think there are probably several different "formulas" for these substances out there, but all proprietary and not available to the general public.
I also remember reading that many coatings are applied to the driver material during the actual fabrication of the diaphragm, essentially impregnating it, as opposed to just applying it over the material afterward.
I think there are probably several different "formulas" for these substances out there, but all proprietary and not available to the general public.
I also remember reading that many coatings are applied to the driver material during the actual fabrication of the diaphragm, essentially impregnating it, as opposed to just applying it over the material afterward.
Thanks for your comments CLC .
Indeed I know of the "trade-secret" aspect !
Of the several different formulae , some of these will be products with some major Industrial use , and which driver manufactures have chanced upon , somtimes as result of hiring a designer who had earlier found one of such . Also , Industrial suppliers send new product information to customers , as well as publish about in Industry Journals that most of us do not know the titles of .
Indeed , and the better manufacturers get it right then , or at least for the primary intended purpose of the specific driver , which of course some of us tamperers in the DIY community wish to attempt ot put to some other purpose !
Indeed I know of the "trade-secret" aspect !
Of the several different formulae , some of these will be products with some major Industrial use , and which driver manufactures have chanced upon , somtimes as result of hiring a designer who had earlier found one of such . Also , Industrial suppliers send new product information to customers , as well as publish about in Industry Journals that most of us do not know the titles of .
Indeed , and the better manufacturers get it right then , or at least for the primary intended purpose of the specific driver , which of course some of us tamperers in the DIY community wish to attempt ot put to some other purpose !
Thanks guys for the info .
I'll see what Butyl Latex products are available .
Lords BL-100 is apparently no longer made , but as it was sold by the gallon and had a pot life of only 90 days , it would be for large scale manufacturers and not us DIYers , {unless we had a friend who could have brought out a small quantity!}.
I hope some of the other Butly Latexes are longer in container life , or available in small quantities .
I had thought about Silicone , and there are various formulated silicone products for caulking and sealing , each for adhering to different substances , thus a particular type for wood would adhere to a paper cone if it was not impregnated with something incompatable , though with the way silicone substances that I have seen to date , set , I am not sure silicone is the optimum , thus I can believe SY on this {thankyou SY} .
How-ever , I am an experimenter , so if I chance upon some of the wood adhering silicone I will try rubbing it into thick paper and thin cardboard and observing the results !
Honey , OK , probably written for humour , but let's keep the insects away from the cones { ! } , unless you live somewhere too cold for insects .
I'll see what Butyl Latex products are available .
Lords BL-100 is apparently no longer made , but as it was sold by the gallon and had a pot life of only 90 days , it would be for large scale manufacturers and not us DIYers , {unless we had a friend who could have brought out a small quantity!}.
I hope some of the other Butly Latexes are longer in container life , or available in small quantities .
I had thought about Silicone , and there are various formulated silicone products for caulking and sealing , each for adhering to different substances , thus a particular type for wood would adhere to a paper cone if it was not impregnated with something incompatable , though with the way silicone substances that I have seen to date , set , I am not sure silicone is the optimum , thus I can believe SY on this {thankyou SY} .
How-ever , I am an experimenter , so if I chance upon some of the wood adhering silicone I will try rubbing it into thick paper and thin cardboard and observing the results !
Honey , OK , probably written for humour , but let's keep the insects away from the cones { ! } , unless you live somewhere too cold for insects .
Hi!
Seas uses their excel paperdrivers "unique" treatment called by Nextel and claims that:"Nextel coating ensures smooth frequency and low distortion..."
Nextel is a polyurethan based paint/treatment and the product is easily available here in Finland as it should be allover the Europe.It is a 2K product and it will cost about 120euros/liter (actual treatment,hardener and thinner)
What comes to my mind i have a couple of W22excels and want to try paint them by Nextel and see what happens because at the same time
Nextel is elastic and thick.I know the basics what happen,cone mass increases,sensitivity decreases a little and so on but what it actually does?Try to find out!
Seas uses their excel paperdrivers "unique" treatment called by Nextel and claims that:"Nextel coating ensures smooth frequency and low distortion..."
Nextel is a polyurethan based paint/treatment and the product is easily available here in Finland as it should be allover the Europe.It is a 2K product and it will cost about 120euros/liter (actual treatment,hardener and thinner)
What comes to my mind i have a couple of W22excels and want to try paint them by Nextel and see what happens because at the same time
Nextel is elastic and thick.I know the basics what happen,cone mass increases,sensitivity decreases a little and so on but what it actually does?Try to find out!
There has to be dozens of different coatings out there in DIY-land. It really depends on what you want to accomplish: damping resonance, stiffening cone, water proofing, etc.
I can tell you several that are favored by DIY'ers.
1. Hairspray
2. Dammar (Artist's oil painting preservative varnish)
3. Latex Wallpaper Border Adhesive (I've used this many times for repairing punctured cones, cone damping and as a preservative for foam surrounds. One brand that has been recommended in the past was Golden Harvest, others may work as well).
4. Puzzle-coat (The stuff that Dave of Planet 10 discovered. Most common brand that I know is Mod-Podge. This also works well, and my favorite speaker has been treated with this.
5. Shellac (You need to do a search, you'll get a lot of hits at diyAudio or the fullrange forum.)
Many others exist, but the technique of application, number of coats, etc., all make a difference so be careful. Too much can be worse than not enough!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best Regards,
TerryO
I can tell you several that are favored by DIY'ers.
1. Hairspray
2. Dammar (Artist's oil painting preservative varnish)
3. Latex Wallpaper Border Adhesive (I've used this many times for repairing punctured cones, cone damping and as a preservative for foam surrounds. One brand that has been recommended in the past was Golden Harvest, others may work as well).
4. Puzzle-coat (The stuff that Dave of Planet 10 discovered. Most common brand that I know is Mod-Podge. This also works well, and my favorite speaker has been treated with this.
5. Shellac (You need to do a search, you'll get a lot of hits at diyAudio or the fullrange forum.)
Many others exist, but the technique of application, number of coats, etc., all make a difference so be careful. Too much can be worse than not enough!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best Regards,
TerryO
Thanks Noah and Terry - you have both given me good leads to investigate , and options for different types of projects .
For now I am primarily wanting to damp resonances in a paper cone , thus the latex wallpaper border adhesive will likely do it , though I saw the smoothing of the frequency response of a metal coned MCM driver on the t-linespeakers.org {Dave - Planet 10} site after the puzzle coat treatment , thus I'll probably experiment with that type of substance also - I think it could work well with light weight paper cones .
The latex w. b. adhesive will be a useful mod for DIYers wanting to extend the life of foam surrounds , and I'm grateful for your report that it works as I've been reluctant to coat a foam surround pair I have here as some solvents in coatings dissolve foam plastics !
Thankyou indeed Reilumeininki ! - the SEAS secret is out !! - I'll look around for some of that .
A quick search now also showed "Nextel" to be some type of Telecommunications Company , and some mobile phones are either sold by them , or made of a "nextel" substance {I didn't read all the details} .
Post the results of what happens after you have treated your W22 excells - some DIYers here will be very interested in that !
For now I am primarily wanting to damp resonances in a paper cone , thus the latex wallpaper border adhesive will likely do it , though I saw the smoothing of the frequency response of a metal coned MCM driver on the t-linespeakers.org {Dave - Planet 10} site after the puzzle coat treatment , thus I'll probably experiment with that type of substance also - I think it could work well with light weight paper cones .
The latex w. b. adhesive will be a useful mod for DIYers wanting to extend the life of foam surrounds , and I'm grateful for your report that it works as I've been reluctant to coat a foam surround pair I have here as some solvents in coatings dissolve foam plastics !
Reilumeininki said:
Thankyou indeed Reilumeininki ! - the SEAS secret is out !! - I'll look around for some of that .
A quick search now also showed "Nextel" to be some type of Telecommunications Company , and some mobile phones are either sold by them , or made of a "nextel" substance {I didn't read all the details} .
Post the results of what happens after you have treated your W22 excells - some DIYers here will be very interested in that !
Heres the linkhttp://www.mankiewicz.de/produktionsprogramm/default.asp?rn=88463&pp_bereich=2
Seas Excels nextel treatment colorcode/tint is 3101 dark black if someone is interrested.I mail them and thats the answer.No big secret at all.
Reason why i use Nextel because what it looks.Ive been looking for many gray/ghargoal or something like that color and Nextel offers to me what i want
Seas Excels nextel treatment colorcode/tint is 3101 dark black if someone is interrested.I mail them and thats the answer.No big secret at all.
Reason why i use Nextel because what it looks.Ive been looking for many gray/ghargoal or something like that color and Nextel offers to me what i want
Really?This is not a joke?
How does it work?Most of resins,polyurethans based on viscoelastic damping but not all.Some of it is so hard like glass and when you adding in the speaker cone results could be worse than original one.
Few years ago i have some 8" papercone .I treated the cone by resin and the dip in 800Hz get worse!This means that you have to find the optimal treatment what really works your needs.
I think most (paper)cone manufactures looking for some damping materials or development own mixtures to offer better sounding drivers
Reilumeininki said:
Really?This is not a joke?
Most of resins,polyurethans based on viscoelastic damping but not all.Some of it is so hard like glass and when you adding in the speaker cone results could be worse than original one.
Few years ago i have some 8" papercone .I treated the cone by resin and the dip in 800Hz get worse!This means that you have to find the optimal treatment what really works your needs.
I think most (paper)cone manufactures looking for some damping materials or development own mixtures to offer better sounding drivers
No joke. You have look at the FR and the CSD plots first. In general, if the dust cap is metal, you can reduce cap induced resonances. Start from covering half of the cap by leaving the center and a little edge uncovered . For the cone portion, it's a bit more complicated, but generally starting from the outer edge and working towards the center until you start getting too much high freqhency roll off.
I have specifically tried COLGATE with the best results because it dries somethat stiff. The goal is to keep the frequency response while improving CSD in the first 0.3 ms or so. If the sound starts sounding a little dead, then it means the weight is too much. For one 3" driver that I worked with, a weight (after it dried) around 0.2~0.25g on the cone was good.
Currently the Jordan drivers have the best CSD characteristics I've seen, hard to beat even if other drivers are coated.
If anyone has some full metal drivers that they think are not good, we can just try a little project on the forum.
MarkMcK had posted some mods for paper cones. But for each case, it is very specific.
The good thing about using toothpaste is that you can always scrpe it off and start all over.
Thanks guys ,
there is really good ideas here in your posts , and to be tried for specific situations where each may work .
Thankyou SY for reminding me of this "elastic rebound" aspect . It could detrimentally affect the result , thus probably better not use silicone , and I was originally suspicious of it after noticing how it feels when dry .
Great idea ! , and I like the scrape-off potential if too much . Thankyou for describing the procedure also .
Yes , I am familiar with the "could be worse" , thus I am wary of the hard-setting stiffeners , because if the flexing part of the cone that is causing the problem is not fully stopped , then it will flex more sharply .
I think stiffeners are for use on light weight cones , and semi-flexible mass damping is for use on medium weight cones , except in applications where the stiffening needs to be for only the lower frequency part of the driver's bandwidth and any resultant break-up pushed higher in frequency can be electrically filtered .
there is really good ideas here in your posts , and to be tried for specific situations where each may work .
SY said:
Thankyou SY for reminding me of this "elastic rebound" aspect . It could detrimentally affect the result , thus probably better not use silicone , and I was originally suspicious of it after noticing how it feels when dry .
soongsc said:
Great idea ! , and I like the scrape-off potential if too much . Thankyou for describing the procedure also .
Reilumeininki said:
Yes , I am familiar with the "could be worse" , thus I am wary of the hard-setting stiffeners , because if the flexing part of the cone that is causing the problem is not fully stopped , then it will flex more sharply .
I think stiffeners are for use on light weight cones , and semi-flexible mass damping is for use on medium weight cones , except in applications where the stiffening needs to be for only the lower frequency part of the driver's bandwidth and any resultant break-up pushed higher in frequency can be electrically filtered .