Indeed, now that you mention it, I thought it strange there was such a big difference between the BG and TG version. My spec sheet (from the store) claimed 589Hz. Lojzek, you rule! (I know that statement is a bit not done between grown ups, but with so much ruling going on here, I couldn't resist.)
If I change the specs in boxsim, and use the suggested Hp 3rd order, combined with the 22Ohm on the woofer, it all starts to look promising.... Although I now -albeit small- get a bump @2600Hz
If I change the specs in boxsim, and use the suggested Hp 3rd order, combined with the 22Ohm on the woofer, it all starts to look promising.... Although I now -albeit small- get a bump @2600Hz
And on another note: the filter used for the AL170 is a very flat filter (looks like 6dB) that might cause a lot of cancellation when used with an improper tweeter network.
You might have to try other filter toplologies... just changing the tweeter Offset in BoxSim has a pretty wild influence on the "summing". Or the lack of...
You might have to try other filter toplologies... just changing the tweeter Offset in BoxSim has a pretty wild influence on the "summing". Or the lack of...
I suspect you can get bogged down in worrying about the approx 600Hz Fs resonance of the undamped non-ferrofluid XT25 tweeter.
It traditionally benefits from some shunt resistance. Maybe 10R.
On theoretical grounds, I approve of ring radiators like the XT25.
There's another way to get to the same place, IMO. You can model the tweeter like the cone Visaton TW70. But the 92mm Monacor HT22/8 is hugely similar.
MONACOR - HT-22/8
This style of speaker gets very little love in the modern World. But I like it. It needs a 3rd or 4th order tweeter filter around 3kHz to sound good. Which is an improvement on the daft 1st order (single capacitor) filters people used years back.
It traditionally benefits from some shunt resistance. Maybe 10R.
On theoretical grounds, I approve of ring radiators like the XT25.
There's another way to get to the same place, IMO. You can model the tweeter like the cone Visaton TW70. But the 92mm Monacor HT22/8 is hugely similar.
MONACOR - HT-22/8
This style of speaker gets very little love in the modern World. But I like it. It needs a 3rd or 4th order tweeter filter around 3kHz to sound good. Which is an improvement on the daft 1st order (single capacitor) filters people used years back.
Attachments
It looks like Troels Gravesen is happy enough with your regular sort of third order filter with the scanspeak R2604, which is hugely similar to the XT25. Fs peak around 20 ohms at 500Hz. Which would be reduced by a 10R shunt.
There's quite a few designs with the R2604 at his website.
Compact-Studio-Monitor
Like Lojzek says, you gotta try these things yourself. Fs notches seem like a lot of work to me. I'm not sure they do an awful lot if you have good rolloff in the first place.
There's quite a few designs with the R2604 at his website.
Compact-Studio-Monitor
Like Lojzek says, you gotta try these things yourself. Fs notches seem like a lot of work to me. I'm not sure they do an awful lot if you have good rolloff in the first place.
Well, if Mr Gravesen is happy enough, who am I to disagree with him. Man is practically a legend.
Lojzek I'm gonna try your design out and I'll get back to this. I haven't got any measuring equipment yet, so it will be by ear. But if it sounds fair, it is fair to me.
This will take some time though. I have to order my caps online and it usually takes a couple of weeks.
System7: that's an interesting speaker. I kind of like it, but very low WAF (according to my wife, at least)
Lojzek I'm gonna try your design out and I'll get back to this. I haven't got any measuring equipment yet, so it will be by ear. But if it sounds fair, it is fair to me.
This will take some time though. I have to order my caps online and it usually takes a couple of weeks.
System7: that's an interesting speaker. I kind of like it, but very low WAF (according to my wife, at least)
Last edited:
Shirokuma, I ran your .BPJ file in Boxsim. The one in the first post.
It doesn't have any FRD or ZMA files!
I only have some Tymphany XT25SC-30 files from Zaph IIRC. This tweeter is 3dB quieter than the double magnet XT25BG-60. I am prone to making mistakes when importing files, because their is a lot to do. But I certainly found your original filter was too quiet on tweeter. I assumed the XT25SC-30 files were the right shape, so just added 3dB and enabled use frequency response and use phase response on the driver page.
Lojzek's works much better on level. Slightly peaky on impedance, the dotted line, and I preferred series 3R (or 2.7 0r 3.3 is very similar) before and after his 4.7uF/0.33mH/8.2uf filter. The solid line. Because these are 3 ohm tweeters and the 3R takes them up to 6 ohms..
The frd and zma files won't upload here for some reason. Invalid.
It doesn't have any FRD or ZMA files!
I only have some Tymphany XT25SC-30 files from Zaph IIRC. This tweeter is 3dB quieter than the double magnet XT25BG-60. I am prone to making mistakes when importing files, because their is a lot to do. But I certainly found your original filter was too quiet on tweeter. I assumed the XT25SC-30 files were the right shape, so just added 3dB and enabled use frequency response and use phase response on the driver page.
Lojzek's works much better on level. Slightly peaky on impedance, the dotted line, and I preferred series 3R (or 2.7 0r 3.3 is very similar) before and after his 4.7uF/0.33mH/8.2uf filter. The solid line. Because these are 3 ohm tweeters and the 3R takes them up to 6 ohms..
The frd and zma files won't upload here for some reason. Invalid.
Attachments
Last edited:
BTW, this is interesting, but may be simply an artifact of how the file was created, but the phase for the ring-radiator XT25 has none of the s-shaped kinks and resonances you get with most tweeters, which indicate stored energy.
Group delay is the rate of change of phase with frequency IIRC. So if it's straight, it should sound very clean.
Group delay is the rate of change of phase with frequency IIRC. So if it's straight, it should sound very clean.
Attachments
Ok, I have finished them last week and listened to them now and then with a big listening session last night.
I tested them with: Diana Krall, Lisa Ekdahl, Knopfler, Pink Floyd, Jacques Brel, Massive Attack, System of a Down, ...
What I immediatly noticed was that the music came alive this time around.. All previous dullness, or muffled sound was gone. Now I had crisp vivid and bright tones where I needed them.
Second thing was the bass. It was very defined and precise, Nature Boy by Lisa Ekdahl's contrabass sounded like... a real contrabass. As I closed my eyes the upright apeared before me. It also was very deep. No sub needed here, I guess.
Third observation is that on certain (not all) recordings the speakers dissapeared. There was just music in my room nothing more nothing less.
Then something magical happened. I forgot about the speakers and I listened to music all night. Discovering new things and just enjoying the music. There was only the music. Which to me is the best compliment I can give them.
So many many many thanks to all who contributed. Especially Lojzek and System 7, I am really happy with my build here. Should anyone want to try building this one, feel free to ask for more details although you can figure it out with everything that has been posted here.
I tested them with: Diana Krall, Lisa Ekdahl, Knopfler, Pink Floyd, Jacques Brel, Massive Attack, System of a Down, ...
What I immediatly noticed was that the music came alive this time around.. All previous dullness, or muffled sound was gone. Now I had crisp vivid and bright tones where I needed them.
Second thing was the bass. It was very defined and precise, Nature Boy by Lisa Ekdahl's contrabass sounded like... a real contrabass. As I closed my eyes the upright apeared before me. It also was very deep. No sub needed here, I guess.
Third observation is that on certain (not all) recordings the speakers dissapeared. There was just music in my room nothing more nothing less.
Then something magical happened. I forgot about the speakers and I listened to music all night. Discovering new things and just enjoying the music. There was only the music. Which to me is the best compliment I can give them.
So many many many thanks to all who contributed. Especially Lojzek and System 7, I am really happy with my build here. Should anyone want to try building this one, feel free to ask for more details although you can figure it out with everything that has been posted here.
I'm more interested in measurements..
If Al170 have these two peaks which is predicted in sim, sound can't be good..
Aluminium midbas drivers must have 3rd or 4th order xover..
Attachments
Volejov, I appreciate your 'academic' aprouch (meant as a compliment by my standards).
Unfortunatly I don't have any measurement setup, yet. Fact is: they sound wonderfull to me and in the end, that's all that matters. As a corny comparison: my wife doesn't measure high on objective scales based on golden ratio and symmetry laws. But to me she is the most beautiful woman out there. Which is is good because I have to look at her.
I promise: once I have measurement equipment, and understand it all, I'll measure them. For now you'll have to do with: I love the way they sound.
Unfortunatly I don't have any measurement setup, yet. Fact is: they sound wonderfull to me and in the end, that's all that matters. As a corny comparison: my wife doesn't measure high on objective scales based on golden ratio and symmetry laws. But to me she is the most beautiful woman out there. Which is is good because I have to look at her.
I promise: once I have measurement equipment, and understand it all, I'll measure them. For now you'll have to do with: I love the way they sound.
Having considered these things at a a theoretical or mathematical level for many years. I have to admit I have never heard a ring radiator tweeter or 6" metal woofer in my life.
But, let's be honest, that should be no impediment. Ludwig van Beethoven was stone-deaf in later life, but still wrote great and stirring music just from memory. YouTube
vulejov is right up to a point. 3rd or 4th order with impedance correction is one way to do things. With massive complex choral and orchestral pieces involving 150 performers, we prefer the low-distortion route. With light and spectrally undense stuff like a Jazz combo of 4 people, we might enjoy low order crossovers.
IMO, there is a lot to like about ring-radiator tweeters. And a lot to like about metal drivers. But some compromises involved in both. My own feeling, since we are all trying to get somewhere fast before mortal death intervenes, is we should just tell people what we did and how it worked out.
Shirokuma, you should give tireless and generous contributors like myself and Lojzek some real feedback. What crossover schematic of a two-way is working for you, and with what sort of music?
But, let's be honest, that should be no impediment. Ludwig van Beethoven was stone-deaf in later life, but still wrote great and stirring music just from memory. YouTube
vulejov is right up to a point. 3rd or 4th order with impedance correction is one way to do things. With massive complex choral and orchestral pieces involving 150 performers, we prefer the low-distortion route. With light and spectrally undense stuff like a Jazz combo of 4 people, we might enjoy low order crossovers.
IMO, there is a lot to like about ring-radiator tweeters. And a lot to like about metal drivers. But some compromises involved in both. My own feeling, since we are all trying to get somewhere fast before mortal death intervenes, is we should just tell people what we did and how it worked out.
Shirokuma, you should give tireless and generous contributors like myself and Lojzek some real feedback. What crossover schematic of a two-way is working for you, and with what sort of music?
Attachments
No, this is only simulation..
I used AL170 as woofer, 400-500Hz xover.. there are better and cheaper 6-7' drivers for midbas..
Visaton B80
Dayton Audio RS180-4_RS28A
Visaton 2xAL130_KE25SC
Last edited:
I see. I had the al170 and vifa lying around and thought it would be interesting creating something with it. I'm just starting in this diy audio thing. I mostly enjoy the woodworking part of things. As you can see, I am not much of a designer. Hopefully one day. Thanks for the input.
Reading your other posts now...
Reading your other posts now...
Last edited:
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.