The Zaph design is, in fact, a sort of 2kHz Butterworth with a 90 degree phase on the tweeter according to my sim. Which must push it harder than usual.
I posted the files here, if you want to try this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/311454-zaph-madisound-zrt-2-5-a-15.html#post5218875
I don't have the 6600 tweeter files, but they always seem to work much the same to me.
Here's a couple of Harbeth two-ways to enjoy. These are much steeper filters! Lot of design gone into those! I always prefer steeper low-distortion designs.
I posted the files here, if you want to try this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/311454-zaph-madisound-zrt-2-5-a-15.html#post5218875
I don't have the 6600 tweeter files, but they always seem to work much the same to me.
Here's a couple of Harbeth two-ways to enjoy. These are much steeper filters! Lot of design gone into those! I always prefer steeper low-distortion designs.
Attachments
This is just for merlinx76, with his problematic ZRT 2.5:
This is actually an old thread, but JonW has done a much better job than almost anyone here, IMO:
The Spassvogel MT's (Scanspeak 6600 & 18W/8531)
2.2kHz and third order. About the best you can do with that ill-behaved woofer, IMO.
This is actually an old thread, but JonW has done a much better job than almost anyone here, IMO:
The Spassvogel MT's (Scanspeak 6600 & 18W/8531)
2.2kHz and third order. About the best you can do with that ill-behaved woofer, IMO.
Attachments
I heard those myself in 2007, Steve, and actually talked with JonW about them. He used an earlier version of the AirCirc 6000, and therefore it does not apply to the current production units. This change happened mid '00s, and the tweeters are different enough to warrant changes to the network.
FWIW, his implementation sounded very good!
Wolf
FWIW, his implementation sounded very good!
Wolf
Since I never updated you guys, perhaps I should.
I bought a (used) miniDSP 4x10. After quite a lot of experimenting with crossover points and slopes, there just seems be nothing I can do to make these speakers sound good with metal music although everything is a bit better now and I could live with it for sure.
With a measurement mic and experimenting, I now have the speakers sealed with a shelving EQ to make up for the low frequency losses when I am not using subwoofers. I have also moved my subwoofers to a better position in the room, sealed their ports, and use a shelving EQ on them as well. The bass sounds worlds cleaner now and I run the subs up to 170hz (4th order) when I use them because I get less interaction with the back wall that way. I can instantly swap between using them or not by using the memory settings on the miniDSP. I basically always use the subs for music or movies, and only turn them off if I am watching low quality TV.
Steeper mid/tweeter slopes has helped. If I push the crossover up in frequency, I find it tends to sound worse. I think at least part of the issue is these midwoofers don't sound good up into the treble region... at least to my ears. Since the mini DSP has 4 memory settings, I can instantly swap back and forth between options. I think steeper slopes also helped with the sound when I am not sitting in the sweet spot.
The wiring is quite complex. I run PC optical audio into miniDSP, and 6 channel analog out to 6 separate channel input of my HT amplifier (2 for subs, 2 for midwoofer, 2 for tweeter). The amp is not doing any processing other than it is set to bi-amp the midwoofer channel so that it gets duplicated. This way, each midwoofer gets it's own channel out of the HT amp. Of course each tweeter gets its own channel, and then the 2 subwoofer channels are routed through the HT amp pre-outs to my sub amp. This way I can keep noise to inaudible levels by using the HT amp volume to control it all.
I have also bought some scanspeak 10f midranges that I will try incorporating into the system in the future. I should be able to make it work by adding a box on top of these boxes since the miniDSP gives me so much control. I will have to change things when I want to run 3-way+sub. I will wind up only having mono subwoofer at that point. There is only so much I can do with the equipment I have and using the miniDSP volume control is not acceptable unless I can build a better power supply for it because of noise issues. Then I run into the cost of buying more amps as well which is a big expense that isn't really needed IMO.
Thank you guys for trying to help. The combination of these woofers/ears, seems to be the problem I will update when I add the 10f midrange and experiment for some time with them. It will take some time to find the sweet spot I think.
I bought a (used) miniDSP 4x10. After quite a lot of experimenting with crossover points and slopes, there just seems be nothing I can do to make these speakers sound good with metal music although everything is a bit better now and I could live with it for sure.
With a measurement mic and experimenting, I now have the speakers sealed with a shelving EQ to make up for the low frequency losses when I am not using subwoofers. I have also moved my subwoofers to a better position in the room, sealed their ports, and use a shelving EQ on them as well. The bass sounds worlds cleaner now and I run the subs up to 170hz (4th order) when I use them because I get less interaction with the back wall that way. I can instantly swap between using them or not by using the memory settings on the miniDSP. I basically always use the subs for music or movies, and only turn them off if I am watching low quality TV.
Steeper mid/tweeter slopes has helped. If I push the crossover up in frequency, I find it tends to sound worse. I think at least part of the issue is these midwoofers don't sound good up into the treble region... at least to my ears. Since the mini DSP has 4 memory settings, I can instantly swap back and forth between options. I think steeper slopes also helped with the sound when I am not sitting in the sweet spot.
The wiring is quite complex. I run PC optical audio into miniDSP, and 6 channel analog out to 6 separate channel input of my HT amplifier (2 for subs, 2 for midwoofer, 2 for tweeter). The amp is not doing any processing other than it is set to bi-amp the midwoofer channel so that it gets duplicated. This way, each midwoofer gets it's own channel out of the HT amp. Of course each tweeter gets its own channel, and then the 2 subwoofer channels are routed through the HT amp pre-outs to my sub amp. This way I can keep noise to inaudible levels by using the HT amp volume to control it all.
I have also bought some scanspeak 10f midranges that I will try incorporating into the system in the future. I should be able to make it work by adding a box on top of these boxes since the miniDSP gives me so much control. I will have to change things when I want to run 3-way+sub. I will wind up only having mono subwoofer at that point. There is only so much I can do with the equipment I have and using the miniDSP volume control is not acceptable unless I can build a better power supply for it because of noise issues. Then I run into the cost of buying more amps as well which is a big expense that isn't really needed IMO.
Thank you guys for trying to help. The combination of these woofers/ears, seems to be the problem I will update when I add the 10f midrange and experiment for some time with them. It will take some time to find the sweet spot I think.
So this may have little to do with the Ops issue but just in case I offer...
About a year ago I was deep in a struggle tailoring the overall frequency response of a speaker. This system used a 8 inch woofer to 500 hz where a ribbon took over from there. A number of different woofers were tried and as well a number of different ribbon diaphragm designs were tested. Also a number of different crossover points and slopes (from 500 to 1.5Khz).
Yes I understand a very different animal BUT hear me out..
After months of work and countless hours listening and re listening I came away by far humbled most by the effects small changes in FR can have on overall perception and long term listen ability.
What struck me most was how the the sound could go from rather " Hi Fi ish" and or over time hard to listen to, to down right convincing and over time much easier to listen to, with ONLY .5 db changes in say the level between mid-range and treble regions. How the bass could go from un-dynamic and rather soft, to solid and articulate with a small change in the same areas. And yes then theirs the "3khz dip" thing that seems to make everything sound acceptable but not necessarily great. Etc Etc
Point being this. That I suspect many designers underestimate the importance of how the mid to treb balance is tailored and how very very small alterations in these areas can make unexpectedly large differences in the precieved quality overall.
Im far from a master in this court and I am often thankful for the wealth of knowledge and experience I can get coming to this forum, and Im sure I can raise many questions on what I have experienced that I simply cannot answer, BUT I know what I "feel" when listening and I gota tell ya my presuppositions based on what is often believed to be "correct" were shattered by this experience.
BTW in the end I found that no matter what arrangement of drivers , crossovers, baffles, etc etc, I never once cam away liking a system that measured flat or slightly up tilted in the treb compaired to the mids. I always ended up with some level of rake down out to 20K. It was different amounts with different arraignments, but always a slightly down tilted response sounded most believable
About a year ago I was deep in a struggle tailoring the overall frequency response of a speaker. This system used a 8 inch woofer to 500 hz where a ribbon took over from there. A number of different woofers were tried and as well a number of different ribbon diaphragm designs were tested. Also a number of different crossover points and slopes (from 500 to 1.5Khz).
Yes I understand a very different animal BUT hear me out..
After months of work and countless hours listening and re listening I came away by far humbled most by the effects small changes in FR can have on overall perception and long term listen ability.
What struck me most was how the the sound could go from rather " Hi Fi ish" and or over time hard to listen to, to down right convincing and over time much easier to listen to, with ONLY .5 db changes in say the level between mid-range and treble regions. How the bass could go from un-dynamic and rather soft, to solid and articulate with a small change in the same areas. And yes then theirs the "3khz dip" thing that seems to make everything sound acceptable but not necessarily great. Etc Etc
Point being this. That I suspect many designers underestimate the importance of how the mid to treb balance is tailored and how very very small alterations in these areas can make unexpectedly large differences in the precieved quality overall.
Im far from a master in this court and I am often thankful for the wealth of knowledge and experience I can get coming to this forum, and Im sure I can raise many questions on what I have experienced that I simply cannot answer, BUT I know what I "feel" when listening and I gota tell ya my presuppositions based on what is often believed to be "correct" were shattered by this experience.
BTW in the end I found that no matter what arrangement of drivers , crossovers, baffles, etc etc, I never once cam away liking a system that measured flat or slightly up tilted in the treb compaired to the mids. I always ended up with some level of rake down out to 20K. It was different amounts with different arraignments, but always a slightly down tilted response sounded most believable
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The Spassvogel guy JonW is known as "Jon Marsh" at HTGuide. I have very high respect for his xo and voicing skills, but I have never heard his designs.
Mission Possible DIY
Mission Possible DIY
I went through a terrible time with the first speakers I built (quad 4 fusions). Sounded very harsh and fatiguing. I was ready to take the drivers out and chop them up for fire wood, when I tried them in a big room with lots of space around them. I used an old boom box for the source and my cell phone.
It was unbelievable how good they sounded, I mean I was stunned, I had to sit down, because I had never heard sound like that before. The room matters a lot. in fact hi fi speakers can sound worse than cheap ones. Boomy bass is a classic symptom of poor match for the room.
It was unbelievable how good they sounded, I mean I was stunned, I had to sit down, because I had never heard sound like that before. The room matters a lot. in fact hi fi speakers can sound worse than cheap ones. Boomy bass is a classic symptom of poor match for the room.
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