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Old 25th October 2013, 06:25 PM   #11
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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The woofer choice in a Synergy horn is not that critical. If it simulates half way decent, then it will be fine. It is actually better to use a less expensive woofer with a weaker motor because your bigger problem is getting the woofer to "turn off" so it doesn't interfere with the mid. Cheap woofers are perfectly fine.
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Old 26th October 2013, 08:30 AM   #12
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Well, the Delta-12LFAs isn't particularly expensive, like some RCF and B&C drivers are... Plus they seems to turn off nicely in the sims, although its motor is not particularly weak at 14.1 Tm.

I'm questioning the sims of the mids, though. When I enlarged Ap1 (the size of the mid-tap holes), nothing changed in the Particle Velocity graph. Same thing when I made them very small. I would expect a smaller tap hole would result in a higher particle velocity, am I wrong? Or is it because of the small port length (LPT)? I was planning on some decent frustrums... (I used v32.20 & 32.40, the latest version of Hornresp).
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Old 26th October 2013, 10:23 AM   #13
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thijs666 View Post
Well, the Delta-12LFAs isn't particularly expensive, like some RCF and B&C drivers are... Plus they seems to turn off nicely in the sims, although its motor is not particularly weak at 14.1 Tm.

I'm questioning the sims of the mids, though. When I enlarged Ap1 (the size of the mid-tap holes), nothing changed in the Particle Velocity graph. Same thing when I made them very small. I would expect a smaller tap hole would result in a higher particle velocity, am I wrong? Or is it because of the small port length (LPT)? I was planning on some decent frustrums... (I used v32.20 & 32.40, the latest version of Hornresp).
You are correct; the larger ports will result in lower velocities. I personally don't use Hornresp for velocity sims; I use Akabak.
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Old 27th October 2013, 07:47 AM   #14
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Sawdust .

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Since this is a proto, I didn't us PU glue, but ordinary kit. That way I can dissamble the thing with relative ease and use the parts as a template.

As you can see, at the moment there are only 4 mids mounted. I'm still planning on 6, but I only had 4 at hand. Preliminary testing suggests 6 wouldn't be a bad idea considering the efficiency of the compression driver.

Now I run into another problem: A 12" woofer won't fit on the side. So it's either back to 2x10" or 4x8", or.... I need to come up with a construction to fit the 12s. The only way I see that happening, is with a bigger front chamber and an extra mounting plate. Let's try to sim that .
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Old 27th October 2013, 05:48 PM   #15
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I took some measurements (still with only the 4 mid drivers):

Click the image to open in full size.

Red = Mids only, no filters,
Blue = High only, no filters, same power applied as in red curve,
Yellow = 2.83V , mids filtered HP: @249Hz/But24, LP: @1k/But24; high HP @1k But24 (this clipped my mic input, so the top of the curve should actually go even higher),
Green = Mids&tops, filtered and EQ'ed (using a DCX2496 and REW's RTA function and white noise generator for a flat curve).

All measurements @1m on axis, mic SPL calibrated using DEQ2496 SPL meter/ECM8000 measurement mic.

It's starting to look like it's going to work . With the EQ dialed in and the filters set it's already nice to listen to. Bad/distorted recordings are easily recognized ...

I can't wait to find a solution for the woofer problem .
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Old 29th October 2013, 08:30 PM   #16
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I am confident the Visaton M10 is going to work out well, so I ordered 8 more (2 for this proto and 6 for producing the final stereo set.

The woofer part is giving me troubles, though. The Delta-12LFA would probably work, but the top and bottom of the horn need to be fitted with a mounting baffle and that will probably make the height dimension too large, more than 48cm, but it's hard to measure without the actual thing on hand. Putting the woofers on the sides will make the box too wide to fit two of them in the sub . I'll start looking for a similar driver with a smaller depth...
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Old 30th October 2013, 03:17 PM   #17
epa is offline epa  Netherlands
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looks intresting thijs.
those bms drivers sound verry nice.
wil those m10's survive the snare?
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Old 31st October 2013, 09:46 PM   #18
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Hi Eric,

Thanks again for the advice and help with the sub/drumrizer .

I think 6 M10's in one box will survive. At least I hope so . The driver itself doesn't look too bad, looking at its price (I found them for 13 each). Early testing with the proto with only 4 of them yielded about 115dB with 10Vac - without woofers or the sub. I'm not sure yet how far I can push the M10's, but we'll see. I'm picking up 8 more, so hopefully I'll be able to install the last two on the proto tomorrow.

At the moment I still have a hard time finding (affordable) woofers that meet my specs, SPL- as well as dimension-wise. I've been looking at the Faital Pro 8FE200's, mentioned in the 'suitable midrange cone'-thread, but they don't sim nice . Too much response above 300Hz. Or I'm just really off with my simulations.

The Eminence Beta 12A is 11.6cm deep, 2cm less than the Delta-12LFA, and it looks like it would actually fit. It doesn't sim really nice, but maybe it'll do... I'd really value some input on the matter, before I order two 75 ($105) that turn out unusable . Here are some sims:

Click the image to open in full size.

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Yeah, I know, this is just the horn sim part. If I implement back chamber vents, I may be able to get even more low output, which would be nice to cover the hole between the sub .

Any suggestions and/or opinions are welcome .
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Old 1st November 2013, 06:12 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thijs666 View Post
The Eminence Beta 12A is 11.6cm deep, 2cm less than the Delta-12LFA, and it looks like it would actually fit. It doesn't sim really nice, but maybe it'll do...

Yeah, I know, this is just the horn sim part. If I implement back chamber vents, I may be able to get even more low output, which would be nice to cover the hole between the sub .
Thijs,

Drum riser/sub, my old friend Steve Raitt (r.i.p.) did that back in the 1980s, fun. Actually brought his along from Minneapolis, Minnesota, on a tour of Europe.

The Beta 12A response looks good, and if your sub matches the sims (why no measurements?) and you "haystack" the bottom, porting should not be needed, though time alignment will be, of course.

A non phase inversion top (sealed rather than BR) is usually easier to get a good transition in the acoustical crossover region of around 100 Hz that you are looking at.

Art
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Old 1st November 2013, 06:33 PM   #20
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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Try the cheap 6.5 in polycone buyout driver from PE for the woofer - it sims well and has nice flat response with bass down to 50 Hz (sealed box) and reach up to 1 kHz. You can have a two way. The drivers are less than $5 ea and qnty 4 will get you to 89 to 91 dB efficiency.

Synergy Horns-Dayton and PRV.....

Last edited by xrk971; 1st November 2013 at 06:36 PM.
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