FSHZ:42 said:
G-ray,
I'm going to give you an answer that you're probably not going to like.
The people that I know that are "really" into this sort of thing seem to think that MAM-R Audio Master 1x-12x discs are the best.
The problem is that they're sold in minimum quantities of 1000. Broken down from that quantity, the price is about $25 each, or $25,000 for the minimum order.
The Grand Prize for "The Puget Sound! DIY Speaker Contest" held this last summer was a CD created by Winston Ma of FIM, Gary Leonard Koh of Genesis Advanced Technologies and Bruce Brown of Puget Sound Studios. They used the MAM-R brand CD-R and then prepared it by giving it an Ultrasonic bath in De-Ionized Water, followed by an application of a proprietary damping compound, before it was trued on a lathe and dynamically balanced. The burning process was a multi-step process to insure the production of the best CD in the World, outside of JVC's high security R&D laboratory in Japan.
The previous best CD had been the Mercedes/AMG's "Passion" CD that is not for sale to the public, but is included with the purchase of a new AMG. This disc had a documented Block Error Rate (BLER) of ten, while the Audiophile CD usually have between 20 to 50 BLER.
"The Puget Sound!" CD has a BLER of between .3 to .5 (!!!) and sounds fantastic. There is only one copy of this disc and it was awarded to John Nail for his Best in Show entry, the "Purple Puppies."
Best Regards,
TerryO
Hi guys!
Maybe I should have been a little more specific! Here is what I am trying to accomplish: I want to burn some tracks from a few cd's I had purchased from a local audio store. They are of good quality like original master recordings. I was told that the Tayio Yuden (TY) brand was an excellent choice for burning music to. Now for the set up that I have: I am using an older program, CDEX, to rip the tracks off these master recorded disc as a wav file. I then use Sound Blaster Audigy program to convert to wav file @ 24bit/96khz. Using an older Sony burner(CRX210E1) that I have for my PC, I then burn to cd-r disk. I am not a 100% sure that this is the right format to burn using these two programs! All I am trying to do is to make the burned discs sound as good as the original! I also cannot afford a $25,000.00 order for blank cd-r discs, but thanks guys for the info!
Thanks Again!
Maybe I should have been a little more specific! Here is what I am trying to accomplish: I want to burn some tracks from a few cd's I had purchased from a local audio store. They are of good quality like original master recordings. I was told that the Tayio Yuden (TY) brand was an excellent choice for burning music to. Now for the set up that I have: I am using an older program, CDEX, to rip the tracks off these master recorded disc as a wav file. I then use Sound Blaster Audigy program to convert to wav file @ 24bit/96khz. Using an older Sony burner(CRX210E1) that I have for my PC, I then burn to cd-r disk. I am not a 100% sure that this is the right format to burn using these two programs! All I am trying to do is to make the burned discs sound as good as the original! I also cannot afford a $25,000.00 order for blank cd-r discs, but thanks guys for the info!
Thanks Again!
FSHZ:42 said:
Hi Again,
I've heard from people I respect that the Tayio Yuden discs are very good. I think that they would be just fine for what you're attempting to do. I've had pretty good luck with the "imation" brand discs. They're sold everywhere and have been consistantly good quality, especially for the price.
Buy a small quanity of both and then compare them yourself.
Best Regards,
TerryO
FSHZ:42
I get great results by using Exact Audio Copy to extract the tracks to the HDD, then burn them at 4 X to a Kodak Gold Preservation CD-R. (52x 700MB 80min.) It boasts a 24 KARAT GOLD Reflective Layer, and up to 300 years archival. Surprisingly, with good quality material, the copy sounds better than the original , with a larger soundstage, as well as sounding cleaner. Best of all, you can buy them here in Woolworths Supermarkets for around AU$6.99 each. I have seen them advertised much cheaper in the U.S.A.
At that price, why not try one ?
SandyK
I get great results by using Exact Audio Copy to extract the tracks to the HDD, then burn them at 4 X to a Kodak Gold Preservation CD-R. (52x 700MB 80min.) It boasts a 24 KARAT GOLD Reflective Layer, and up to 300 years archival. Surprisingly, with good quality material, the copy sounds better than the original , with a larger soundstage, as well as sounding cleaner. Best of all, you can buy them here in Woolworths Supermarkets for around AU$6.99 each. I have seen them advertised much cheaper in the U.S.A.
At that price, why not try one ?
SandyK
Hi all
The brand of disc is important but there some are other things that affect the copy. A friend and I did lots of tests on copying. We hooked up a counter to the test point in the player that indicated loss of Guard Frame Sync. We found that the CD burner produced disks with less errors when burnt at high speed (x12) and more errors when using slow speeds. This was not expected but I would say that it would depend on the individual burner, other burners maybe different. We were using a Plextor burner and x12 was the highest speed available.
Now the interesting part of this story is that we found that a lot of 'audiophiles' preferred the sound of the copies with more errors. The error free disks sounded dull and lifeless by comparison to them.
Any thoughts ?
The brand of disc is important but there some are other things that affect the copy. A friend and I did lots of tests on copying. We hooked up a counter to the test point in the player that indicated loss of Guard Frame Sync. We found that the CD burner produced disks with less errors when burnt at high speed (x12) and more errors when using slow speeds. This was not expected but I would say that it would depend on the individual burner, other burners maybe different. We were using a Plextor burner and x12 was the highest speed available.
Now the interesting part of this story is that we found that a lot of 'audiophiles' preferred the sound of the copies with more errors. The error free disks sounded dull and lifeless by comparison to them.
Any thoughts ?
fredex
I have seen similar reports to yours before. I have a Pioneer
DVR 111D, and a Pioneer DVR 212 (SATA) and although I normally burn at 4 x, I feel sure that some discs may very well benefit from being burned at higher speeds. I haven't bothered with higher speeds with the Kodak 24K discs.
I imagine that it is the superior reflectivity of the Mobile Fidelity and Kodak 24K discs that is the reason for their superior performance. Let's face it, Mobile Fidelity doesn't just use Gold discs for their good looks !
SandyK
I have seen similar reports to yours before. I have a Pioneer
DVR 111D, and a Pioneer DVR 212 (SATA) and although I normally burn at 4 x, I feel sure that some discs may very well benefit from being burned at higher speeds. I haven't bothered with higher speeds with the Kodak 24K discs.
I imagine that it is the superior reflectivity of the Mobile Fidelity and Kodak 24K discs that is the reason for their superior performance. Let's face it, Mobile Fidelity doesn't just use Gold discs for their good looks !
SandyK
sandyK said:
Hi SandyK, Couple of questions: Do you know if these discs:http://www.mofi.com/productcart/pc/...=0&idproduct=29 are the same quality as the ones you mentioned? If so, where in the USA could I find them? Also, have you tried the Tayio Yuden brand for comparison? One last Q: If I used the Exact Audio Copy program, would my Sony burner have any effect on the quality?
Thanks
Hi SandyK
A lesson I learnt was that when cd burners first came available I and others always preferred the copies to the originals. Theories abounded, maybe the original cd was the last one pressed before they replaced the stamper and the pits were ill defined whereas the copy is re-timed and has better defined edges. Or the different color of the CDR was affecting the laser etc etc. However after our measurements I have concluded that what we were hearing was the effects of error concealment and / or error correction, this adds an edge to the sound which we mistook for more detail.
Some of the people who preferred the sound of disks with lots of errors were horrified to think we were actually measuring something as "measurements are meaningless when it comes to audio", they preferred to trust their ears.
A lesson I learnt was that when cd burners first came available I and others always preferred the copies to the originals. Theories abounded, maybe the original cd was the last one pressed before they replaced the stamper and the pits were ill defined whereas the copy is re-timed and has better defined edges. Or the different color of the CDR was affecting the laser etc etc. However after our measurements I have concluded that what we were hearing was the effects of error concealment and / or error correction, this adds an edge to the sound which we mistook for more detail.
Some of the people who preferred the sound of disks with lots of errors were horrified to think we were actually measuring something as "measurements are meaningless when it comes to audio", they preferred to trust their ears.
FSHZ:42
Sorry, but I can't answer those questions. I normally use Verbatim discs as a result of repeatedly coming out on top in the local PC magazines yearly in depth test results.
I had previously read that "gold" DVD-R also give superior video rendition, but I'm not rich enough to try a bulk buy of those.
I tried the Kodak 24K discs after spotting them at the local Woolworths Supermarket, and liked the results with compilation albums. Any burner has the potential to give a degraded result. That is why some people go to a great deal of trouble to acoustically dampen their PCs , and reduce vibration.
I have had good results with a couple of DVD players by dampening parts of the DVD mechanism with adhesive felt in strategic places. I see no reason why doing similar to a DVD burner's chassis shouldn't also be beneficial if carefully implemented.
I understand that variable speed fans may also be beneficial in helping to reduce vibration, perhaps even using rubber grommets to mount them.
SandyK
fredex
I have never burned a compilation album that I liked better than the original, when using normal CDRs from the usual brand names. ONLY, when using the Kodak 24K discs.
SandyK
Sorry, but I can't answer those questions. I normally use Verbatim discs as a result of repeatedly coming out on top in the local PC magazines yearly in depth test results.
I had previously read that "gold" DVD-R also give superior video rendition, but I'm not rich enough to try a bulk buy of those.
I tried the Kodak 24K discs after spotting them at the local Woolworths Supermarket, and liked the results with compilation albums. Any burner has the potential to give a degraded result. That is why some people go to a great deal of trouble to acoustically dampen their PCs , and reduce vibration.
I have had good results with a couple of DVD players by dampening parts of the DVD mechanism with adhesive felt in strategic places. I see no reason why doing similar to a DVD burner's chassis shouldn't also be beneficial if carefully implemented.
I understand that variable speed fans may also be beneficial in helping to reduce vibration, perhaps even using rubber grommets to mount them.
SandyK
fredex
I have never burned a compilation album that I liked better than the original, when using normal CDRs from the usual brand names. ONLY, when using the Kodak 24K discs.
SandyK
Re: Re: Best Clarity CD-R for burning music
To my ears, they were as good (or better) as MAM Gold CD-Rs, and you can get them from musicdirect.com: http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73904
FSHZ:42 said:
To my ears, they were as good (or better) as MAM Gold CD-Rs, and you can get them from musicdirect.com: http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73904
Comparing CDR brands is a lot like comparing cables....It's completely subjective. Many people (myself included) believe that there is NO difference in sound quality, as long as you stick to the brand names like Verbatim, TDK, Maxell, FujiFilm, Memorex, Sony, Imation and HP. The biggest thing that you should worry about is reliability. Stay away from "no name" brands. These you will find at a super low price but don't do it. I found this out the hard way...After a short period of time, those cheap discs will start to develop errors and start to sound fuzzy, then they'll become unreadable. There goes all you precious music!
I also found no difference between music and data CDR's, but that's just me. Maybe my ears just aren't golden enough!
~~John~~
http://stereophile.com/hirezplayers/1007eso/index.html:
"But how much difference can all of this mechanical stability and "perfect tracking" make to digital sound? Why should it make any difference at all?
Many audiophiles forget that an optical disc is actually an analog format—the digital code itself is not engraved in the disc. Instead, the disc's "land" and "pit" surfaces are physical analogs of the digital bitstream's ones and zeros. As the laser beam is reflected off a land or a pit, the amount of reflected light reflected determines whether the information is read as a one or as a zero.
A CD pit is intended to absorb light; the laser's "direct hit" on a pit is more likely to provide greater absorption of the beam, and thus a greater likelihood of the pit's being read correctly, than the "partial hit" of an off-axis strike (footnote 1). While error-correction circuitry can extrapolate and fill in missing data, better tracking should result in fewer reading errors, and thus less interpolation, less jitter, and better sound when the data is converted to an analog signal.
Footnote 1: The depth of the pits on a disc's surface should be one quarter of the wavelength of the laser light, meaning that when read from directly above, there will be complete destructive interference with light reflected from the pits, but not the lands, maximizing the dynamic contrast. This contrast is reduced when the pits are read from an angle."
"But how much difference can all of this mechanical stability and "perfect tracking" make to digital sound? Why should it make any difference at all?
Many audiophiles forget that an optical disc is actually an analog format—the digital code itself is not engraved in the disc. Instead, the disc's "land" and "pit" surfaces are physical analogs of the digital bitstream's ones and zeros. As the laser beam is reflected off a land or a pit, the amount of reflected light reflected determines whether the information is read as a one or as a zero.
A CD pit is intended to absorb light; the laser's "direct hit" on a pit is more likely to provide greater absorption of the beam, and thus a greater likelihood of the pit's being read correctly, than the "partial hit" of an off-axis strike (footnote 1). While error-correction circuitry can extrapolate and fill in missing data, better tracking should result in fewer reading errors, and thus less interpolation, less jitter, and better sound when the data is converted to an analog signal.
Footnote 1: The depth of the pits on a disc's surface should be one quarter of the wavelength of the laser light, meaning that when read from directly above, there will be complete destructive interference with light reflected from the pits, but not the lands, maximizing the dynamic contrast. This contrast is reduced when the pits are read from an angle."
sandyK said:
SandyK,
It's my understanding that the Grand Prize disc (see above) was burned on an outboard burner with a dedicated PS and mounted on an FIM roller block isolation platform. This was done by Gary Leonard Koh of Genesis. There were a lot of steps in the production of this CD, and my memory of what all was done is a little hazy, but IIRC the music was run through EAC in the "Suicide mode" until there was as good a rendering as possible when it was transfered to a memory card.
The memory card was then played off of a laptop computer running on batteries with the screen turned off (Noise?) to the above mentioned Burner, which was a specific model of Yamaha that is no longer being made (sorry, I don't remember the model #). All of the prep work done to the disc itself was as described above.
Note: I am not an expert, and am relating what I can remember, in order that those of you that have an interest "may" gain something from this.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Re: Re: Re: Best Clarity CD-R for burning music
Hey Peter,
Thanks for the info on the above discs! I may order a batch and try them out. My concern would be the Sony burner I am using along with the program. Someone here had mentioned the program Exact Audio Copy. I was using the CDEX program converting to wav file format (16-bit/44khz) Do you think that either of these programs are better than the other?
Thanks
FSHZ:42
Peter Daniel said:
Hey Peter,
Thanks for the info on the above discs! I may order a batch and try them out. My concern would be the Sony burner I am using along with the program. Someone here had mentioned the program Exact Audio Copy. I was using the CDEX program converting to wav file format (16-bit/44khz) Do you think that either of these programs are better than the other?
Thanks
FSHZ:42
You don't want to do anything other than make an exact copy of the original file. Use the latest version of EAC to do this, don't resample or otherwise modify the files you rip, doing it this way you can make excellent copies with no particular issues.
I'm even worse I usually use Nero and just make a copy at the maximum recommended write speed of the media I use. Critical copies I make with EAC otherwise I do not worry much about it.
I do not use audio CD-R - why pay the royalty on these disks when a standard HP or similar high quality data grade CD-R works just fine? I generally stick to Kodak, HP or other similarly well regarded brands, and archival grades guaranteed for 10yrs are worth the money if you will not have the original source material down the road.
Incidentally it should go without saying that you should not be copying copyrighted material except for your own personal use (under fair use doctrine) and should not distribute it to others.
I'm even worse I usually use Nero and just make a copy at the maximum recommended write speed of the media I use. Critical copies I make with EAC otherwise I do not worry much about it.
I do not use audio CD-R - why pay the royalty on these disks when a standard HP or similar high quality data grade CD-R works just fine? I generally stick to Kodak, HP or other similarly well regarded brands, and archival grades guaranteed for 10yrs are worth the money if you will not have the original source material down the road.
Incidentally it should go without saying that you should not be copying copyrighted material except for your own personal use (under fair use doctrine) and should not distribute it to others.
Hi Kevinkr, I looked for the Exact Audio Copy on Google and this is what I found:http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/en/
It appears to be directing me to download AVS Audio Converter. I am not sure if this is for EAC. Would you let me know if this is what I need to download?
Thanks
It appears to be directing me to download AVS Audio Converter. I am not sure if this is for EAC. Would you let me know if this is what I need to download?
Thanks
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