Hi
I am a bit late on this thread but maybe some of my findings could be helpful to some people. My experience with loudspeakers is mainly with various types of electrostatics for some 30 years. Since three years I have used a pair of NS-1000M. Over a six month period I replaced all the components in the filter. This was done in a stepwise fashion so that each change could be evaluated. Step 1, all the capacitors in the top/mid range were changed to SCR MP. Step 2, the L-pads were cleaned with the EML Contact Cleaner. Step 3, the tweeter and midrange coils were replaced with OFC air coils. Step 4, the woofer coil was also replaced. Step 5, a ring magnet was added to the woofer. At some point I replaced the dreadful binding posts with some proper ones.
Step 1 resulted in much clearer mid/top as well as well as challenging the quality of the equipment being used. Step 2 gave a distinct unveiling over the whole register. This is so easy to do and should be done by everyone. It only takes 15 minutes to do. Step 3 gave a much wanted airiness and spaciousness as well as a better decay mode of the signal in the mid/top. Step 4 was done rather late and the result came as a big surprise. This change resulted in several things. The low register became very open. The mid range cleaned up even more than before. The decay mode improved, as perceived, over the whole register. I believe that this have to with that the woofer can be heard a bit up in the mid range as pointed out by "Kouiky". The whole speaker became much more coherent and the registers blended much better. Step 5 was suggested by a friend of mine that is an acoustical engineer and a very clever person with open ears and an opened mind, so sadly rare with engineers in my experience. This resulted in something all NS-1000 owners are looking for. The woofer all of a sudden became more powerful and presented the low register with a lot of energy and control. The start and stop of this unit was also very much improved.
If anyone feels that this is in anyway helpful and want some expanding or explanation of any point I will gladly do so.
Since some two months I am listening to a pair of NS-2000 and I will gladly give my early impressions of these speakers and how it compares with the modified NS-1000 if there is an interest.
decca4
I am a bit late on this thread but maybe some of my findings could be helpful to some people. My experience with loudspeakers is mainly with various types of electrostatics for some 30 years. Since three years I have used a pair of NS-1000M. Over a six month period I replaced all the components in the filter. This was done in a stepwise fashion so that each change could be evaluated. Step 1, all the capacitors in the top/mid range were changed to SCR MP. Step 2, the L-pads were cleaned with the EML Contact Cleaner. Step 3, the tweeter and midrange coils were replaced with OFC air coils. Step 4, the woofer coil was also replaced. Step 5, a ring magnet was added to the woofer. At some point I replaced the dreadful binding posts with some proper ones.
Step 1 resulted in much clearer mid/top as well as well as challenging the quality of the equipment being used. Step 2 gave a distinct unveiling over the whole register. This is so easy to do and should be done by everyone. It only takes 15 minutes to do. Step 3 gave a much wanted airiness and spaciousness as well as a better decay mode of the signal in the mid/top. Step 4 was done rather late and the result came as a big surprise. This change resulted in several things. The low register became very open. The mid range cleaned up even more than before. The decay mode improved, as perceived, over the whole register. I believe that this have to with that the woofer can be heard a bit up in the mid range as pointed out by "Kouiky". The whole speaker became much more coherent and the registers blended much better. Step 5 was suggested by a friend of mine that is an acoustical engineer and a very clever person with open ears and an opened mind, so sadly rare with engineers in my experience. This resulted in something all NS-1000 owners are looking for. The woofer all of a sudden became more powerful and presented the low register with a lot of energy and control. The start and stop of this unit was also very much improved.
If anyone feels that this is in anyway helpful and want some expanding or explanation of any point I will gladly do so.
Since some two months I am listening to a pair of NS-2000 and I will gladly give my early impressions of these speakers and how it compares with the modified NS-1000 if there is an interest.
decca4
The grills are held in place by a rubber ring that has been bonded to the chassis. IME, removing the grill damages this rubber. Perhaps you could get a can of compessed air to blow off (gently) the dust...?
Hi georgebrooke
As you are not asking any specific question I have to try to respond in a general sense. The NS-1000 is a three way system. If you want to bi-amp them I guess that you want to make a split between the mid/top and the woofer. This would most probably bee feasible but I have no experience of doing such a modification. However I have some general remarks that may be helpful to people wanting to modify the filters.
When I first exchanged the capacitors in the mid/top the result was very disappointing. It turned out that when measuring the components with a capacitance meter the values were not correct. The same was the case for the later mod with the coils. So if you want to embark on the journey of making a proper mod of the filters you need an instrument that can measure both capacitance and inductance. In case of the capacitors you will have to buy some extra ones to get the proper values. In terms of the inductors you may have to ad some turns or retract some. The instrument is not very costly and is well worth the price considering the result.
decca4
As you are not asking any specific question I have to try to respond in a general sense. The NS-1000 is a three way system. If you want to bi-amp them I guess that you want to make a split between the mid/top and the woofer. This would most probably bee feasible but I have no experience of doing such a modification. However I have some general remarks that may be helpful to people wanting to modify the filters.
When I first exchanged the capacitors in the mid/top the result was very disappointing. It turned out that when measuring the components with a capacitance meter the values were not correct. The same was the case for the later mod with the coils. So if you want to embark on the journey of making a proper mod of the filters you need an instrument that can measure both capacitance and inductance. In case of the capacitors you will have to buy some extra ones to get the proper values. In terms of the inductors you may have to ad some turns or retract some. The instrument is not very costly and is well worth the price considering the result.
decca4
Hi Shaun
The NS-2000 is an entirely different speaker than the NS-1000. The only component I believe that they have in common are the L-pads and I am not even sure that they are the same. All the wiring, the voice coils and the coils in the filter are made of OFC as far as I can find out. The capacitors in the filter are of higher quality. Everyone knows that the woofer is different to the one in the NS-1000 but so are also the units in the top and mid. The tweeter has a magnet that is more than 50% larger than that in the NS-1000. The magnet in the mid range is also larger.
These are my first listening impressions in comparison with NS-1000 and other top of the range box speakers that I have heard: much lower distortion, so very clean, very even — no register sticks out, very revealing of the quality of the other components that you are using. Very coherent. It is very difficult to tell where they are crossing over. The low register is such a joy — clean and rich and at the same time with remarkably control. The speakers present effortless dynamics — not as good but approaching good horn systems, speed is very close to high quality electrostatics, coherency is very good almost as good as very good electrostatics and finally very musical with proper electronics.
The joy of listening is a bit like when I got my first pair of ESL-57 or when I connected the Futterman OTL H3AA to the Quad speakers. The TV has been on only occasionally since NS-2000 first lit up. Being a tweaker I try to imaging what could be achieved by modifying the filters. However the sound is just so good that presently I feel no urge to do so.
Are they price worthy as compared to the NS-1000? To me they are but I am not so sure everybody would agree. If you have the means then get a pair. Otherwise stay with the NS-1000. They are great speaker especially if you modify the filters and ad a magnet to the woofer.
decca4
The NS-2000 is an entirely different speaker than the NS-1000. The only component I believe that they have in common are the L-pads and I am not even sure that they are the same. All the wiring, the voice coils and the coils in the filter are made of OFC as far as I can find out. The capacitors in the filter are of higher quality. Everyone knows that the woofer is different to the one in the NS-1000 but so are also the units in the top and mid. The tweeter has a magnet that is more than 50% larger than that in the NS-1000. The magnet in the mid range is also larger.
These are my first listening impressions in comparison with NS-1000 and other top of the range box speakers that I have heard: much lower distortion, so very clean, very even — no register sticks out, very revealing of the quality of the other components that you are using. Very coherent. It is very difficult to tell where they are crossing over. The low register is such a joy — clean and rich and at the same time with remarkably control. The speakers present effortless dynamics — not as good but approaching good horn systems, speed is very close to high quality electrostatics, coherency is very good almost as good as very good electrostatics and finally very musical with proper electronics.
The joy of listening is a bit like when I got my first pair of ESL-57 or when I connected the Futterman OTL H3AA to the Quad speakers. The TV has been on only occasionally since NS-2000 first lit up. Being a tweaker I try to imaging what could be achieved by modifying the filters. However the sound is just so good that presently I feel no urge to do so.
Are they price worthy as compared to the NS-1000? To me they are but I am not so sure everybody would agree. If you have the means then get a pair. Otherwise stay with the NS-1000. They are great speaker especially if you modify the filters and ad a magnet to the woofer.
decca4
No problem. I would be grateful, and others would evidently benefit, from a more detailed recipe of your modifications: cap values, magnet size, air coil details, etc . . .
Thanks in advance!
Hi hubsand
The rebuilding of the filters is no rocket science and could most assuredly be performed by anyone reading this page. If I were to this again I would build the filter on a piece of wood instead of on the existing filter.
The circuitry and all the values has been posted earlier by "kstifido" post #196. I have not changed any values. Except for the big coil for the woofer I bought all components from ELFA which can be contacted at the below page.
https://www1.elfa.se/elfa~se_sv/index.jsp?ignorecookie=true
SCR is a French company and their polypropylene capacitors are quit good. There are most certainly others that could be chosen which are just as good or even better but these are more than good enough and much better than what was there before. The brand of the air coils is probably not critical at all as long as they OFC. Also go for the coils with the lowest resistance.
As mentioned earlier you need to measure all components so that values are precisely what you want. The other thing you need to be careful about is to place all the coils turned 90 degrees to each other. If you don't the coils respective magnetic fields will interfere with each other.
I don't know the size of the extra magnet added to the woofer as it is sitting in the cabinet presently. The size is not critical as long as it is "big enough". I will revert to this point when I have measured the size of the magnets. There are some more points relevant to this procedure which I will also address.
Good luck!
decca4
The rebuilding of the filters is no rocket science and could most assuredly be performed by anyone reading this page. If I were to this again I would build the filter on a piece of wood instead of on the existing filter.
The circuitry and all the values has been posted earlier by "kstifido" post #196. I have not changed any values. Except for the big coil for the woofer I bought all components from ELFA which can be contacted at the below page.
https://www1.elfa.se/elfa~se_sv/index.jsp?ignorecookie=true
SCR is a French company and their polypropylene capacitors are quit good. There are most certainly others that could be chosen which are just as good or even better but these are more than good enough and much better than what was there before. The brand of the air coils is probably not critical at all as long as they OFC. Also go for the coils with the lowest resistance.
As mentioned earlier you need to measure all components so that values are precisely what you want. The other thing you need to be careful about is to place all the coils turned 90 degrees to each other. If you don't the coils respective magnetic fields will interfere with each other.
I don't know the size of the extra magnet added to the woofer as it is sitting in the cabinet presently. The size is not critical as long as it is "big enough". I will revert to this point when I have measured the size of the magnets. There are some more points relevant to this procedure which I will also address.
Good luck!
decca4
Hi H3D
I am afraid adding a magnet will not make the speaker go any deeper. The size of the cabinets probably puts a limit to how deep it will go. However what it will do is adding a lot of punch and energy to the lower register. I cannot take a picture at the moment but will try to do so when I have an opportunity. Adding a magnet is easy. It is just a matter of turning the repelling side to back of the bass element. Ones you get it close it will stick without the need for glue or anything. I will measure the size of the magnet I used and post it. As I was told by knowledgeable friend the size of the magnet is not critical as long as it is of reasonable size as compared to the one that you are adding it to. Presently the extra magnet is added to my NS-2000. 'The effect on these speakers were absolutely marginal.
I would be very interested in your listening impression of all the mods that you have made and what components you used (brands).
decca4
I am afraid adding a magnet will not make the speaker go any deeper. The size of the cabinets probably puts a limit to how deep it will go. However what it will do is adding a lot of punch and energy to the lower register. I cannot take a picture at the moment but will try to do so when I have an opportunity. Adding a magnet is easy. It is just a matter of turning the repelling side to back of the bass element. Ones you get it close it will stick without the need for glue or anything. I will measure the size of the magnet I used and post it. As I was told by knowledgeable friend the size of the magnet is not critical as long as it is of reasonable size as compared to the one that you are adding it to. Presently the extra magnet is added to my NS-2000. 'The effect on these speakers were absolutely marginal.
I would be very interested in your listening impression of all the mods that you have made and what components you used (brands).
decca4
The cheapest upgrade!
I just removed the tweeter on one of my NS-2000 just to see if I could get access to the L-pads to spray some contact spray into them. I couldn't get access due to heavy internal bracing around the speaker opening.
However, I noticed that the screws holding the tweeter weren't very tight, so I tightened all screws for the tweeters and mids on both units. I didn't do the woofers as they are hidden behind temporary grilles, and were tightened a couple of years ago anyway.
Oh dear, what a difference to the sound that made!
Transients are now much more well defined (scarily so), and bass feels more physical. Details are also more well resolved. Some peaks seem to be gone too, which I blamed on the room previously. (Only problem is that the sounds is so clean that I tend to crank the volume too high. The bass shaking the room and myself is quite addictive.)
I just removed the tweeter on one of my NS-2000 just to see if I could get access to the L-pads to spray some contact spray into them. I couldn't get access due to heavy internal bracing around the speaker opening.
However, I noticed that the screws holding the tweeter weren't very tight, so I tightened all screws for the tweeters and mids on both units. I didn't do the woofers as they are hidden behind temporary grilles, and were tightened a couple of years ago anyway.
Oh dear, what a difference to the sound that made!
Transients are now much more well defined (scarily so), and bass feels more physical. Details are also more well resolved. Some peaks seem to be gone too, which I blamed on the room previously. (Only problem is that the sounds is so clean that I tend to crank the volume too high. The bass shaking the room and myself is quite addictive.)
Hi Patrick,
Was it you that almost sold your NS-2000's on eBay recently?
I was very tempted to put a bid in for that pair, I'd love a pair of 2000's.
My pcb designs are now completed for internal upgrades for both the NS-10M in all it's variations and the NS-1000/1000M. They are quite large pcbs but mount directly where the last one was with five mounting pillars and they use the present and still excellent sounding inductors.
My external, tri-amp version will be along later and will have a no compromise set of components, I'm wondering about have them encapsulated in potting compound too.
Please could we get some pics of your NS-2000's please Patrick. The more the merrier.
kind regards
Ben
Was it you that almost sold your NS-2000's on eBay recently?
I was very tempted to put a bid in for that pair, I'd love a pair of 2000's.
My pcb designs are now completed for internal upgrades for both the NS-10M in all it's variations and the NS-1000/1000M. They are quite large pcbs but mount directly where the last one was with five mounting pillars and they use the present and still excellent sounding inductors.
My external, tri-amp version will be along later and will have a no compromise set of components, I'm wondering about have them encapsulated in potting compound too.
Please could we get some pics of your NS-2000's please Patrick. The more the merrier.
kind regards
Ben
Hi Patrick,
Was it you that almost sold your NS-2000's on eBay recently?
I was very tempted to put a bid in for that pair, I'd love a pair of 2000's.
My pcb designs are now completed for internal upgrades for both the NS-10M in all it's variations and the NS-1000/1000M. They are quite large pcbs but mount directly where the last one was with five mounting pillars and they use the present and still excellent sounding inductors.
My external, tri-amp version will be along later and will have a no compromise set of components, I'm wondering about have them encapsulated in potting compound too.
Please could we get some pics of your NS-2000's please Patrick. The more the merrier.
kind regards
Ben
Oh no, I'm not selling those speakers!
I doubt I could get what they are worth anyway. (They are worth a LOT to me!)
If I had more space in the living room I would pick up some of the NS-1000 that are on sale on ebay at the moment. There are enough NS-1000 around that experimenting with tri-amping etc would be fun, but the NS-2000 will be left well alone!
Photos.. Well, I might take the temporary grilles off to dust them, so migh take some photos then. Replacing the grilles are tedious (4 cable ties holding each).
BTW, does anyone here have the measurements for the dedicated stands for the NS-2000? Mainly the height! (I need to make something like them.)
I hope audiojoy is still about
I was under the impression that the capacitors used in the NS1000 crossover weren't any kind of reversible electrolytic, they are simply too big for the capacitance rating (& voltage) imo. I may be wrong, however you have given me ideas
I'd suggest that if you want to mess about with the inductors you kit yourself out with some large gapped SMPS ferrites, EE65 or bigger would definately allow you to wind the same inductance but with much lower series resistance. In some respects though this might not be the best idea as that series resistance slightly increases the bass driver Qcb so bass may be a tad drier if going the low series resistance route.
From what i have measured & averaged out (6 Yamaha 12" bass units) the Qts is about 0.217 & the FS is 20.5Hz. When stuffed into the M enclosure this results in an Fcb of about 40Hz & a Qcb of approximately 0.403. In other words they are already a little lacking in deep bass compared to most other speakers of the same kind of size. Low Qcb gives a slow rolloff though at the driver resonance they are already about -7db down.
Oh yes, they sound very clean though due to the excellent transient response
Next try modding the enclosures & really hear a difference
I was under the impression that the capacitors used in the NS1000 crossover weren't any kind of reversible electrolytic, they are simply too big for the capacitance rating (& voltage) imo. I may be wrong, however you have given me ideas
I'd suggest that if you want to mess about with the inductors you kit yourself out with some large gapped SMPS ferrites, EE65 or bigger would definately allow you to wind the same inductance but with much lower series resistance. In some respects though this might not be the best idea as that series resistance slightly increases the bass driver Qcb so bass may be a tad drier if going the low series resistance route.
From what i have measured & averaged out (6 Yamaha 12" bass units) the Qts is about 0.217 & the FS is 20.5Hz. When stuffed into the M enclosure this results in an Fcb of about 40Hz & a Qcb of approximately 0.403. In other words they are already a little lacking in deep bass compared to most other speakers of the same kind of size. Low Qcb gives a slow rolloff though at the driver resonance they are already about -7db down.
Oh yes, they sound very clean though due to the excellent transient response
Next try modding the enclosures & really hear a difference
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Wow, that was record quick! Thanks!
250mm high, and my shortened "Lack" just happen to be 230mm high!
That photo together with measurements is enough to make pretty good replicas.
£430 for two stands might be a bit much..
Next try modding the enclosures & really hear a difference
Very interesting!
I've been thinking about making some surround speakers to go with the NS-2000. I planned to make them small though, with puny woofers. Any more data on those NS-1000 derivates?