first results
It's quiet at this tread, but I'll place my findings anyway. This weekend I modded the speakers. I ran 30 cm cable short, so one piece is unmodded. They have been playing since 3 o'clock this afternoon and they sound nicer every hour. The clarity is magnificent. The only thing is I'm missing a lot of bass, even with the pod's turned back tot -3 db. I'm looking for a "winding" for the bass. That's the only part I didn't replace. Maybe a nice tritec.
I'm curious what it's gonna sound like after a few weeks.
It's quiet at this tread, but I'll place my findings anyway. This weekend I modded the speakers. I ran 30 cm cable short, so one piece is unmodded. They have been playing since 3 o'clock this afternoon and they sound nicer every hour. The clarity is magnificent. The only thing is I'm missing a lot of bass, even with the pod's turned back tot -3 db. I'm looking for a "winding" for the bass. That's the only part I didn't replace. Maybe a nice tritec.
I'm curious what it's gonna sound like after a few weeks.
Hi everyone,
New to the forum, but not new to the NS1000. Currently I'm trying to research and gather up information for my up and coming DIY speaker design/build using all NOS NS1000 drivers and incorporating design ideas from TAD (Technical Audio Devices) and Audio Physic from Germany.
After reading many posts and gain many ideas from all the trial and errors and experiments from many experts here in the forum has given me confident to pursuit this wonderful hobby.
New to the forum, but not new to the NS1000. Currently I'm trying to research and gather up information for my up and coming DIY speaker design/build using all NOS NS1000 drivers and incorporating design ideas from TAD (Technical Audio Devices) and Audio Physic from Germany.
After reading many posts and gain many ideas from all the trial and errors and experiments from many experts here in the forum has given me confident to pursuit this wonderful hobby.
The thing that made NS-1000 one of the most memorable speaker is the ultra fast beryllium mid and high freq drivers. Everyone here I am sure is pretty much acquainted with that fact. I have own many speakers in the past and sold off many and it is always the NS-1000 that I can't let go. Let see, there were the B&W, KEFs, Rogers, Martin Logan, Monitor Audio, few home made electrostatic, etc.. the point is, none of the speakers have the fast transient response that the NS-1000 exhibits. Over the years, I just kept buying and trading with the hope that I will find a speaker that I can keep and done with, and so far most didn't make it, and few that I really light, I can't afford.
I have found over the years that it's the middle frequencies is the most critical, so most speaker companies tried to nail the middle frequencies right and most people will buy them.. ( well, with the help from the magic of marketing, design, brand loyalty, and other mysterious factors ) So far, the electrostatic can do the linear mid to high frequencies without cross-over, others used fancy filters with high tech drivers (think kevlar, ceramic-over aluminum, and the most fancy that I came across was use of "modulated Plasma" using ionized helium plasma as a speaker diaphragm, and driven by electronic amp, designed by Allen Hill.
Anyway, I now know what I need to hear, and I know what I can and can not afford, and I know the whole audio speaker system is a serious of compromise. After many many hours of design, changes, I have settled with getting the NS-1000 mid and high frequency driver and use the some of existing cross-over design, and I am going to design and build my own lower freq section, and design my own cabinet. The requirements are simply a full spectrum, high fidelity audio monitor, with the ability to faithfully and truly reproduce all the dynamics, sonic details and harmonic nuance from the original performance. ( All things have costs and constrains, and there will be compromises in the design )
The NS-1000 have wonderful sound from the mid to high freq drivers. Trumpet sounds have bites, snare drums have the right snap, piano keys have the right percussive rings, and ahhh voices have all the complex harmonics that can be traced back to the ultra thin and light Beryllium diaphragm. But, unfortunately the base section is really lacking. I was drummer for many years, and I really need to not only hear the base drum, but to be impact by it. The NS-2000 or the NS-1000x have tried to addressed the base issues, and one can not find them easily. So here I am looking to integrate the new old stock Mid and High BE drivers, and design and build the rest from scratch.
Currently, the NS-1000 cross over place the high freq driver 180 degree out of phase with the rest of the freq band in an effort to correct the phase alignment. I am planning to use the Audio Physic's slant back design and woofer arrangement as my starting point, and put all drivers back into phase. There are so many things I wanted to address, but I am going to ask for expert advice here hopefully folks here are still interested in the art of DIY/tweaks on the NS1000 parts.
I have found over the years that it's the middle frequencies is the most critical, so most speaker companies tried to nail the middle frequencies right and most people will buy them.. ( well, with the help from the magic of marketing, design, brand loyalty, and other mysterious factors ) So far, the electrostatic can do the linear mid to high frequencies without cross-over, others used fancy filters with high tech drivers (think kevlar, ceramic-over aluminum, and the most fancy that I came across was use of "modulated Plasma" using ionized helium plasma as a speaker diaphragm, and driven by electronic amp, designed by Allen Hill.
Anyway, I now know what I need to hear, and I know what I can and can not afford, and I know the whole audio speaker system is a serious of compromise. After many many hours of design, changes, I have settled with getting the NS-1000 mid and high frequency driver and use the some of existing cross-over design, and I am going to design and build my own lower freq section, and design my own cabinet. The requirements are simply a full spectrum, high fidelity audio monitor, with the ability to faithfully and truly reproduce all the dynamics, sonic details and harmonic nuance from the original performance. ( All things have costs and constrains, and there will be compromises in the design )
The NS-1000 have wonderful sound from the mid to high freq drivers. Trumpet sounds have bites, snare drums have the right snap, piano keys have the right percussive rings, and ahhh voices have all the complex harmonics that can be traced back to the ultra thin and light Beryllium diaphragm. But, unfortunately the base section is really lacking. I was drummer for many years, and I really need to not only hear the base drum, but to be impact by it. The NS-2000 or the NS-1000x have tried to addressed the base issues, and one can not find them easily. So here I am looking to integrate the new old stock Mid and High BE drivers, and design and build the rest from scratch.
Currently, the NS-1000 cross over place the high freq driver 180 degree out of phase with the rest of the freq band in an effort to correct the phase alignment. I am planning to use the Audio Physic's slant back design and woofer arrangement as my starting point, and put all drivers back into phase. There are so many things I wanted to address, but I am going to ask for expert advice here hopefully folks here are still interested in the art of DIY/tweaks on the NS1000 parts.
coruscate said:
Do you see this as a problem? What is important is that the summed response over the crossover region be smooth, IMO. But to do it absolutely "correctly", a different crossover configuration (e.g., 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley) will allow same-polarity connection.
Originally posted by coruscate I am planning to use the Audio Physic's slant back design and woofer arrangement as my starting point, and put all drivers back into phase. There are so many things I wanted to address, but I am going to ask for expert advice here hopefully folks here are still interested in the art of DIY/tweaks on the NS1000 parts.
A good starting point would be to determine the relative acoustic offsets of the respective drivers. You'll need to mount your selected drivers into a test baffle using the final mounting method (e.g., flush mounted) and then measure their relative acoustic offsets. This will then tell you whether you need to offset them physically, and by how much, using a stepped or sloped baffle.
Best mid-range speaker
Hi,
I agree about the quality of the mid-range on the NS1000, but if you are really researching into best possible speakers for mid-range, you really should look (and listen) to Manger speakers. See http://www.manger-audio.co.uk/manger-speakers.htm .
They use a unique arrangement for very high quality mid-range sound, certainly giving transients as good as an electrostatic, but with much greater power handling.
If you follow the link you will find some technical papers on these speakers. They also make a available a very good demo CD. The manufacturer is actually German, but I have given the UK website as most of their literature is in English, unlike the German site.
George
Hi,
I agree about the quality of the mid-range on the NS1000, but if you are really researching into best possible speakers for mid-range, you really should look (and listen) to Manger speakers. See http://www.manger-audio.co.uk/manger-speakers.htm .
They use a unique arrangement for very high quality mid-range sound, certainly giving transients as good as an electrostatic, but with much greater power handling.
If you follow the link you will find some technical papers on these speakers. They also make a available a very good demo CD. The manufacturer is actually German, but I have given the UK website as most of their literature is in English, unlike the German site.
George
Shaun,
Thanks for the suggestion, and yes, phase alignment is the art part DIY. Do I see a problem with the artificial out of phase? Not really, if it's done right, it can fool the head. But, the excercise I am going through is more of a purist, simple, cut down as much complexity as possible solution to bring out the sound. I also think in making a really really good speakers come with many parts: The biggest two are:
1) Get the right components to work together correctly to sound without adding it's own timber or characteristics, meaning no coloration from the sonic level.
(Problems such as all my electrostatic panels sounded like a pillow case is over the entire sound. Bells don't sparkle, and each speaker has it's own sound.. )
2) Once the sonic and all harmonics done correctly, next is to get the speakers to image or phase align correctly.
(Problem such as 10 foot guitar sound coming from electrostatics, or image is blurred, or boxed sound due to slow driver transient response, etc )
George,
Thanks for the Manger Speaker Link. I have to look more into it, it's very interesting initial reading of the technical papers, and looks like we have the same sonic pursuit ideals. The Manger driver from my reading assessment is pretty much a hybrid between a regular driver and electrostatic panel which allow vibration modes to coexist on the diaphragm. The 10 fold in cost which made me confirmed my believe that I need to DIY my own speakers, and there is no way from a numerical or quantitative stand point that those speakers however great it sound will be 1000% better than the NS-1000 drivers. But again, I was delight to know I was in the right path, and thank you for that.
My task is to integrate (1) and (2) and if I can get it to work, I will be a happy soul. Since (1) is pretty much completed, my forcus is now with the cross-over and cabinet/baffle design. The problem is I don't have the right measuring tools and therefore it's going to be a real challenge to do this objectively. So far, I have brought an Oscilloscope, synthesized signal generator, I still need to get an used LCR meter to match the component values.. This is going to be fun project.
Thanks for the suggestion, and yes, phase alignment is the art part DIY. Do I see a problem with the artificial out of phase? Not really, if it's done right, it can fool the head. But, the excercise I am going through is more of a purist, simple, cut down as much complexity as possible solution to bring out the sound. I also think in making a really really good speakers come with many parts: The biggest two are:
1) Get the right components to work together correctly to sound without adding it's own timber or characteristics, meaning no coloration from the sonic level.
(Problems such as all my electrostatic panels sounded like a pillow case is over the entire sound. Bells don't sparkle, and each speaker has it's own sound.. )
2) Once the sonic and all harmonics done correctly, next is to get the speakers to image or phase align correctly.
(Problem such as 10 foot guitar sound coming from electrostatics, or image is blurred, or boxed sound due to slow driver transient response, etc )
George,
Thanks for the Manger Speaker Link. I have to look more into it, it's very interesting initial reading of the technical papers, and looks like we have the same sonic pursuit ideals. The Manger driver from my reading assessment is pretty much a hybrid between a regular driver and electrostatic panel which allow vibration modes to coexist on the diaphragm. The 10 fold in cost which made me confirmed my believe that I need to DIY my own speakers, and there is no way from a numerical or quantitative stand point that those speakers however great it sound will be 1000% better than the NS-1000 drivers.
But again, I was delight to know I was in the right path, and thank you for that.My task is to integrate (1) and (2) and if I can get it to work, I will be a happy soul. Since (1) is pretty much completed, my forcus is now with the cross-over and cabinet/baffle design. The problem is I don't have the right measuring tools and therefore it's going to be a real challenge to do this objectively. So far, I have brought an Oscilloscope, synthesized signal generator, I still need to get an used LCR meter to match the component values.. This is going to be fun project.
Manger
Hi,
I agree with you about the cost issue.. I have been looking for a long time for used versions of teh Manger but they never seem to come onto the market.
My ideal speaker is the NS1000M. It combines the speed of the electrostatic with power handling. I have owned 5 or so Quads.. and I always get carried away by the definition and clarity. But, little bass, low power and really crummy construction.
I am planning to bi-amp my NS1000M, as soon as the active crossover gets built, but I hope you will keep the forum informed about your progress as it sounds very interesting
Good luck with the project
George
Hi,
I agree with you about the cost issue.. I have been looking for a long time for used versions of teh Manger but they never seem to come onto the market.
My ideal speaker is the NS1000M. It combines the speed of the electrostatic with power handling. I have owned 5 or so Quads.. and I always get carried away by the definition and clarity. But, little bass, low power and really crummy construction.
I am planning to bi-amp my NS1000M, as soon as the active crossover gets built, but I hope you will keep the forum informed about your progress as it sounds very interesting
Good luck with the project
George
@ George: Going active will give you the opportunity to revise the crossover. I have not examined the original critically at all but, off the cuff, it seems the crossover slopes and high frequency crossover points could be revised. Also, it could do with a bit of bass equalisation a la Linkwitz transform (assuming the woofer has sufficient Xmax/power handling capability).
Edit: perhaps look into using this little jewel: http://www.groundsound.com/dcn23.php (see also other products).
Edit: perhaps look into using this little jewel: http://www.groundsound.com/dcn23.php (see also other products).
Crossover
Hi Shaun,
I was in Cape Town just a few months ago. If I had known that there was another NS1000 nut in the area perhaps we could have met.
I like the look of that crossover and thanks for that reference. My situation is complicated. I actually have two bi-amping projects.. one with JBL 4343 speakers and the other with the NS1000. The crossover board is based on a design from Nelson Pass and is being built and tested in Australia (Ian McKenzie). It will have jumpers to allow the (infrequent) switching between the JBL and Yamaha speakers. At the moment there are no plans to mess with the slopes of the NS1000 crossover. The plan is to direct couple to the bass speaker, and to drive the mid / high from its own amplifier, switching out the filtering for bass to the mid range as that is handled actively. There seems to be the need to introduce a large (52uF) cap in series with the mid range to protect it from clicks and bangs. Based on what I have read about the crossover, I really only plan to revise/improve the wiring and to upgrade the cap on the tweeter.
Any thoughts on this that you may have would be gratefully received.
George
Hi Shaun,
I was in Cape Town just a few months ago. If I had known that there was another NS1000 nut in the area perhaps we could have met.
I like the look of that crossover and thanks for that reference. My situation is complicated. I actually have two bi-amping projects.. one with JBL 4343 speakers and the other with the NS1000. The crossover board is based on a design from Nelson Pass and is being built and tested in Australia (Ian McKenzie). It will have jumpers to allow the (infrequent) switching between the JBL and Yamaha speakers. At the moment there are no plans to mess with the slopes of the NS1000 crossover. The plan is to direct couple to the bass speaker, and to drive the mid / high from its own amplifier, switching out the filtering for bass to the mid range as that is handled actively. There seems to be the need to introduce a large (52uF) cap in series with the mid range to protect it from clicks and bangs. Based on what I have read about the crossover, I really only plan to revise/improve the wiring and to upgrade the cap on the tweeter.
Any thoughts on this that you may have would be gratefully received.
George
Caps and things
Hi Shaun,
I am very much with Nelson pass on this stuff. He is someone whose opinions I respect and he has the time (and money) to do proper investigations. It is really hard to do objective testing of caps and wire frankly I think a great deal of this is just hype. It keeps the wheel turning though.
Recently, in building a modified Sony PS1 as a cd player I had the opportunity to remove some caps in the signal path and that was noticeable... a dryer and cleaner sound than previously. However, cap comparisons are much harder to acheive. So, taking them away is likely to be good.. but comparisons?
George
Hi Shaun,
I am very much with Nelson pass on this stuff. He is someone whose opinions I respect and he has the time (and money) to do proper investigations. It is really hard to do objective testing of caps and wire frankly I think a great deal of this is just hype. It keeps the wheel turning though.
Recently, in building a modified Sony PS1 as a cd player I had the opportunity to remove some caps in the signal path and that was noticeable... a dryer and cleaner sound than previously. However, cap comparisons are much harder to acheive. So, taking them away is likely to be good.. but comparisons?
George
Re: Best mid-range speaker
I have a pair of matched manger MSWs I've kept around for a while. They are interesting transducers and the best fullrange driver I have encountered. They do however have no less than 10dB higher harmonic distortion at their best and cannot quite equate to proper working NS-1000's CSD. There are three main resonances over the MSW's HF band and I will note settling time really begins to fall apart below 3kHz. The impulse in direct comparison is near identical though the MSW is slightly slower settling, as noted. With that said its a fantastic driver an a great value, and they share things in common.
One object of interest is how the mid-range CSD of the NS-1000 moves upward in frequency exactly like an electrostatic.
georgebrooke said:
I have a pair of matched manger MSWs I've kept around for a while. They are interesting transducers and the best fullrange driver I have encountered. They do however have no less than 10dB higher harmonic distortion at their best and cannot quite equate to proper working NS-1000's CSD. There are three main resonances over the MSW's HF band and I will note settling time really begins to fall apart below 3kHz. The impulse in direct comparison is near identical though the MSW is slightly slower settling, as noted. With that said its a fantastic driver an a great value, and they share things in common.
One object of interest is how the mid-range CSD of the NS-1000 moves upward in frequency exactly like an electrostatic.
Manger
Hi,
Perhaps this is not the place for a Manger discussion, but IMHO they are amongst the best. I am surprised at the 10% distortion figure that you quote, but there are other elements which make them very appealing. Possibly a measure of their success is how infrequently they come up for sale on eBay or wherever.
They were embedded in some speakers manufactured in the UK, at a VERY high price but they seem to have vanished. I have not heard from anyone who has built a Manger kit (they sell a range of kits as well as finsihed products, at least they did at the last time that I looked), but being German I would expect the quality to be very high, as is the price.
Hi,
Perhaps this is not the place for a Manger discussion, but IMHO they are amongst the best. I am surprised at the 10% distortion figure that you quote, but there are other elements which make them very appealing. Possibly a measure of their success is how infrequently they come up for sale on eBay or wherever.
They were embedded in some speakers manufactured in the UK, at a VERY high price but they seem to have vanished. I have not heard from anyone who has built a Manger kit (they sell a range of kits as well as finsihed products, at least they did at the last time that I looked), but being German I would expect the quality to be very high, as is the price.
pods
Hi you all,
I really enjoyed my NS1000's after the mod. But now I have a problem in the high frequencies at high volumes. I just replace one of the tweeters with a normal tweeter, but the problem stayed. A month ago or so I cleaned the Podmeters with isopropylalcohol. Maybe that is the problem? Or does anyone have another idea?
Hi you all,
I really enjoyed my NS1000's after the mod. But now I have a problem in the high frequencies at high volumes. I just replace one of the tweeters with a normal tweeter, but the problem stayed. A month ago or so I cleaned the Podmeters with isopropylalcohol. Maybe that is the problem? Or does anyone have another idea?
HF Problems
Hi,
if you swap the speakers over do you get the same distortion? How about if you swap the amplifier channels... does the distortion move wit the amp?
What do you mean by a "normal" tweeter.. are there mods you made to the tweeter?
BTW, I used to live in Apeldoorn. Nice town but shame about the Town Hall
Hi,
if you swap the speakers over do you get the same distortion? How about if you swap the amplifier channels... does the distortion move wit the amp?
What do you mean by a "normal" tweeter.. are there mods you made to the tweeter?
BTW, I used to live in Apeldoorn. Nice town but shame about the Town Hall
I swapped everything around. The strange thing is that I get it in both speakers on the tweeters.
I used a original tweeter from an Axton AX80, a normal metal domish tweeter. That was to test if the tweeters were broken.
That's a coincidence that you lived in Apeldoorn. Yes the townhall is not our most beautifull piece of architecture.
I used a original tweeter from an Axton AX80, a normal metal domish tweeter. That was to test if the tweeters were broken.
That's a coincidence that you lived in Apeldoorn. Yes the townhall is not our most beautifull piece of architecture.