PW took part in controlled, ABX tests for Hi-Fi News in 1978. James Moir also ran a similar series of tests. Both were publicised at the time. The James Moir tests compared the three Quad power amps (valve, 303 and the 405) and I believe - from memory - the HFN test including Naim amplifiers and possibly others.
In the tests, no listener was able to distinguish between the power amps to a statistically significant degree. The listeners including recording industry professionals and hi-fi writers and reviewers. There have been similar tests conducted since which agree with those findings.
Peter Walker was on record as saying that all competently-designed amplifiers which measured similarly well and were run within their performance capability (not clipped or run into loads beyond their current capability) would be indistinguishable.
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It seems to me that you're suggesting that 90% of this whole forum is based on nothing but people's imaginings of improvements in sound due to their tinkering with pre-amps, poweramps, DACs, phono stages etc etc etc
The idea that ANY electronic cross-over sounds the same and any differences most be down to user error to me is illogical, laughable and flies in the face of a multitude of written personal experiences over the decade+ this forum has been running.
With digital cross-over boxes, to suggest that the differences between them are nonexistent practically wipes out the whole of the Digital Source and Digital Line Level forums and is to say that most participants are fantasists ...
You are of course welcome to your own opinion, if that is your opinion (I realise it was qualified with an open-ended "maybe"), but I disagree with it.
Here's Quad's report: QUAD amplifier comparison PP14 AutoEnh.pdf | Crocodoc
To be more specific, it was a subjective test of listening to a Studer A80 playing first gen master tapes through Yamaha NS1000s in a deliberate "average lounge" acoustic via 3 Quad amps (no other amps were used).
The test group was 6 people.
The amps tested were Quad 405, Quad 303 and a set-up of 3 x paralleled Quad IIs (per side ?) and were connected to the Studer via separate and different potentiometers to match impedence and levels to each amp's requirements.
The more accurate conclusion to be made from the test is that Quad had manufactured 3 amps that when blind A/B tested for hours with 6 particular people, those people didn't consistantly have a preference for any of the Quad amplifiers (that considering the compound, 3 x Quad II per side, system to be one amplifier) when used with a Studer A80 played through Yamaha NS1000s.
I guess congratulations were in order to Quad for keeping the same sound across their range, across generations.
That specific conclusion is a lot different to saying "all correctly designed amps sound the same" - that is a MASSIVE extrapolation which may or may not be true. The test definately does not show that at all.
Personally I'm not a big fan of the Quad amps I've had in my system (450 and 306). Not sure why that is but they didn't sound as good as some others.. what should I conclude from that?? Hey, they are all old amps and I have weeks at a time to get used to their sound without being trapped in a room for hours listening to the same music back to back over and over and over again with pressure upon me to proove a personal belief with the knowledge that my decisions will be scrutinised for the next 40 odd years! Too confusing, so I'll stick to my long-term subjective preferences and just go with that...
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I think that is probably about right if you include the wife in the kitchen.
I never said that
I also never said that, but yes, there are a lot of people who 'believe'. You can get any crossover topology horribly wrong of course.
You don't know my opinion is, but I was repsonding to someone who said 'all cheap digital crossovers add a haze'. I disagree.
I think that is probably about right if you include the wife in the kitchen.
I never said that
I also never said that, but yes, there are a lot of people who 'believe'. You can get any crossover topology horribly wrong of course.
You don't know my opinion is, but I was repsonding to someone who said 'all cheap digital crossovers add a haze'. I disagree.
(wife in the kitchen?? Not sure what you're saying there..)
I wasn't saying that you were specifically saying those things - the post was in response to your post which appeared to be implying these things, but also all those which followed suggesting that it is "audiophile OCD" - an example quote - to hear deficiencies in equipment.
Your post was as good as any to quote. Please don't take it personally, as I wasn't picking you out for any real reason.
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You don't have a wife in the kitchen who says 'that sounds better' when you change things? every audiophile should have one. (Sorry its a joke from another thread, but there is an article in Linear Audio about this that demonstrates wives will say that).
To hear the same fault in a class of things (like digital crossovers) without specifying some details IS audiophile OCD, along with saying that silver cables sound bright or Naim has good PRAT. I was just trying to get some details on what the problem was.
It's all good
To hear the same fault in a class of things (like digital crossovers) without specifying some details IS audiophile OCD, along with saying that silver cables sound bright or Naim has good PRAT. I was just trying to get some details on what the problem was.
It's all good
Meh... just a lack of the English language in describing sounds.. and perhaps many languages.
Let's say you can vocalise and describe the experience perfectly? How does that change things? Still people won't believe you if it's subtle and will accuse you of suffering audiophile OCD.
Worse though is when people DO use a particular common phrase or ways to describe something, PRAT being a good example, then that language gets in their mind and they say it almost like a reflex or out of social expectation when otherwise, if they had no language they would be forced to actually listen and use their senses and find that it was a nonsense phrase.. Whatsmore, those phrases aren't defined and mean different things to different people, dependant on what they were experiencing when another described THEIR sonic experience as being down to PRAT - they are likely experiencing different things but yet use the same word.
Language actually colours the mind, the thinking of a person and forces people into pigeon-holed phrases and also into expression out of social expectation when they don't really mean it. There is a fair amount of research into that, especially the effect of having more words, for example describing tastes and how it then effects the people culturally and the focus of their thinking.
When if comes to subtle sensory feelings, I trust more, people who can't find the words to describe it - their searching to find those very words forces them to look deep into their basic sensory perception.
But alas, this a forum based on the written word and so the guy chose "digital hash" as his expression...
Wife.. personally I don't think I could marry a woman who spent all their time in the kitchen, old fashoned gender roles certainly are not for me. Hopefully we'd be fighting over the music being played or she'd be doing something much more worthwhile than anything involving the kitchen (yes, I'm single - hence the perhaps unrealistic expectation)
Let's say you can vocalise and describe the experience perfectly? How does that change things? Still people won't believe you if it's subtle and will accuse you of suffering audiophile OCD.
Worse though is when people DO use a particular common phrase or ways to describe something, PRAT being a good example, then that language gets in their mind and they say it almost like a reflex or out of social expectation when otherwise, if they had no language they would be forced to actually listen and use their senses and find that it was a nonsense phrase.. Whatsmore, those phrases aren't defined and mean different things to different people, dependant on what they were experiencing when another described THEIR sonic experience as being down to PRAT - they are likely experiencing different things but yet use the same word.
Language actually colours the mind, the thinking of a person and forces people into pigeon-holed phrases and also into expression out of social expectation when they don't really mean it. There is a fair amount of research into that, especially the effect of having more words, for example describing tastes and how it then effects the people culturally and the focus of their thinking.
When if comes to subtle sensory feelings, I trust more, people who can't find the words to describe it - their searching to find those very words forces them to look deep into their basic sensory perception.
But alas, this a forum based on the written word and so the guy chose "digital hash" as his expression...
Wife.. personally I don't think I could marry a woman who spent all their time in the kitchen, old fashoned gender roles certainly are not for me. Hopefully we'd be fighting over the music being played or she'd be doing something much more worthwhile than anything involving the kitchen
(yes, I'm single - hence the perhaps unrealistic expectation)Meh... just a lack of the English language in describing sounds.. and perhaps many languages.
Let's say you can vocalise and describe the experience perfectly? How does that change things? Still people won't believe you if it's subtle and will accuse you of suffering audiophile OCD.
Worse though is when people DO use a particular common phrase or ways to describe something, PRAT being a good example, then that language gets in their mind and they say it almost like a reflex or out of social expectation when otherwise, if they had no language they would be forced to actually listen and use their senses and find that it was a nonsense phrase.. Whatsmore, those phrases aren't defined and mean different things to different people, dependant on what they were experiencing when another described THEIR sonic experience as being down to PRAT - they are likely experiencing different things but yet use the same word.
Language actually colours the mind, the thinking of a person and forces people into pigeon-holed phrases and also into expression out of social expectation when they don't really mean it (like the bright silver cables thing). There is a fair amount of research into that, especially the effect of having more words, for example describing tastes and how it then effects the people culturally and the focus of their thinking.
When if comes to subtle sensory feelings, I trust more, people who can't find the words to describe it - their searching to find those very words forces them to look deep into their basic sensory perception.
But alas, this a forum based on the written word and so the guy chose "digital hash" as his expression...
Wife.. personally I don't think I could marry a woman who spent all their time in the kitchen, old fashoned gender roles certainly are not for me. Hopefully we'd be fighting over the music being played or she'd be doing something much more worthwhile than anything involving the kitchen
IIRC the article suggests that she will say it sounds better based on the way she sees you reacting, and her desire to please you. My finding is that women don't always know what I'm feeling about audio based on how I react. I guess my attitude to audio probably encompasses more than just feeling and logical thought lol.
Wilmslow Prestige postscript: I pulled out my crossovers and checked them against the Wilmslow schematic. Effin' hell, the caps have different voltage ratings and the inductors which should be 0.47mh are marked 0.5mh and 1mh! This is clearly wrong. I swapped out the Wilmslow caps for some Jantzen cross caps and have a wonderful improvement in SQ over the Wilmslow caps. the caps have just got better and better so now I have bass!!!
Next up will be the correct Jantzen inductors. Wilmslow really are a bunch of cretins!
Next up will be the correct Jantzen inductors. Wilmslow really are a bunch of cretins!
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Sorry, juancho, but sort it all out before you start name-calling.
AFAIK, what you SHOULD have is a crossover like below, with a swap on mid and tweeter polarity if we have come to any sort of conclusion.
But capacitor voltage rating is entirely a matter of taste. A 0.5mH aircoil will scarcely sound different from any other sort of 0.47 coil. Now a 1mH coil in place of a 0.47mH coil might be slightly worrying, but measure it. Wilmslow may simply have unwound a 1mH coil to suit.
Overall I am singularly unimpressed by you guys efforts with this speaker. Big on complaining, short on detail or effort.
A bit controversial, I suppose. But heck, what a lousy boring thread.
Attachments
Lol! Well if it cheers anyone up, these speakers do sound really great with a properly setup digital crossover. Am currently running them with a minidsp 4x10 fed digital aes signal from a high quality USB converter from a PC.
I am incredibly impressed with the sound of the 4x10 HD, particularly when it is fed a quality digital source. After fully equalising all the drivers beyond their passband I can then explore the sound of different crossover slopes, currently loving lr24 and bw18 acoustic slopes.
The digital delay was also very handy as quite a bit was required following measurements.
This was my first project with a digital crossover, and I was worried about sound quality and the impact it would have versus analogue, but my fears were unfounded.
I am incredibly impressed with the sound of the 4x10 HD, particularly when it is fed a quality digital source. After fully equalising all the drivers beyond their passband I can then explore the sound of different crossover slopes, currently loving lr24 and bw18 acoustic slopes.
The digital delay was also very handy as quite a bit was required following measurements.
This was my first project with a digital crossover, and I was worried about sound quality and the impact it would have versus analogue, but my fears were unfounded.
Have you started a new thread with details of this minidsp setup anywhere? I would be VERY interested to know the details since it is the way I intend to go.
From a technical point of view you probably have a point but the OP thought he was buying a fully sorted out, and proven, design that could be built into a fully working top-quality speaker. WA do not appear to have sold him that. There are different levels of DIY and some people want to make proven kits, others want to start from scratch.
Sorry, juancho, but sort it all out before you start name-calling.
AFAIK, what you SHOULD have is a crossover like below, with a swap on mid and tweeter polarity if we have come to any sort of conclusion.
But capacitor voltage rating is entirely a matter of taste. A 0.5mH aircoil will scarcely sound different from any other sort of 0.47 coil. Now a 1mH coil in place of a 0.47mH coil might be slightly worrying, but measure it. Wilmslow may simply have unwound a 1mH coil to suit.
Overall I am singularly unimpressed by you guys efforts with this speaker. Big on complaining, short on detail or effort.
A bit controversial, I suppose. But heck, what a lousy boring thread.
Sorry, juancho, but sort it all out before you start name-calling.
AFAIK, what you SHOULD have is a crossover like below, with a swap on mid and tweeter polarity if we have come to any sort of conclusion.
But capacitor voltage rating is entirely a matter of taste. A 0.5mH aircoil will scarcely sound different from any other sort of 0.47 coil. Now a 1mH coil in place of a 0.47mH coil might be slightly worrying, but measure it. Wilmslow may simply have unwound a 1mH coil to suit.
Overall I am singularly unimpressed by you guys efforts with this speaker. Big on complaining, short on detail or effort.
A bit controversial, I suppose. But heck, what a lousy boring thread.
Are you serious? The guy bought a kit, hes paid for the IP of an expert designer. I don't know your knowledge on speaker design, but the from what I have read on this forum by experts I trust, modelling crossovers doesn't get you there, you need to know what your doing.
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