I certainly buy it!
BTW: In your haste to make some sort of point, you mentioned that the Theile/Small paramaters were an established method long before the 1970's. There are more than a few around here that know that isn't true.
BTW: I've listened to several systems that are acknowledged as some of the very best Worldwide. The point being that they are excellent systems and the owners (that I have known for many years) are quite modest and very nice individuals. Their speakers are considerably more than $20,000.
BTW: It's always nice to welcome newcomers to the hobby.
Best Regards,
TerryO
You are replying to an old post but the author is quite correct in that there is nothing in the physics of the Thiele-Small models that wasn't in basic Acoustics text books by Olson, Beranek, Kinsler and Frey and similar from 20 years or so earlier. The contribution by Thiele and Small was to put together design rules for engineers to use.
And I have been told first hand that they did it in a downstairs bunker in ABC studios in Sydney....green smoke was the order of the day also, so I am told.
Dan.
"a lack of self-worth, a doubt and uncertainty, and feelings of not measuring up to standards. It is often subconscious, and is thought to drive afflicted individuals to overcompensate, resulting either in spectacular achievement or extreme asocial behavior." wikipedia definition of inferiority complex.
I think this has something that maybe explain these overpriced hi-end equipments, they serve as medicine to cure this subconscious problem.
IMHO, a 20K speaker do not has to be placed in this category, I'm talking about a 80k, 100k+ equipment like a FM Acoustics linestage for 150K and some part of the Swiss audio industry, this justs do not make sense, even with all the manufacture costs possible.
Also, burning money in audio is not compromisse with the best result...
Pair of Dark Star Opulence speakers U$1,100,000
Wavac amp SH833 US350,000
Audio Note linestage U$140,000
DcS DAC U$50,000
Cables U$30,000
------------------------
Total U$1,670,000
If I have a:
JBL 4343 or B&W 801 Matrix U$4000
PASS Labs DIY class A amp U$2,000
DIY Aikido Octal preamp U$500
DIY Dac U$400
Belden cables U$100
Total cost: U$7,000
That's less than 0,5% of the other system cost... ok the other system is 200,000% better! NO WAY.
I think this has something that maybe explain these overpriced hi-end equipments, they serve as medicine to cure this subconscious problem.
IMHO, a 20K speaker do not has to be placed in this category, I'm talking about a 80k, 100k+ equipment like a FM Acoustics linestage for 150K and some part of the Swiss audio industry, this justs do not make sense, even with all the manufacture costs possible.
Also, burning money in audio is not compromisse with the best result...
Pair of Dark Star Opulence speakers U$1,100,000
Wavac amp SH833 US350,000
Audio Note linestage U$140,000
DcS DAC U$50,000
Cables U$30,000
------------------------
Total U$1,670,000
If I have a:
JBL 4343 or B&W 801 Matrix U$4000
PASS Labs DIY class A amp U$2,000
DIY Aikido Octal preamp U$500
DIY Dac U$400
Belden cables U$100
Total cost: U$7,000
That's less than 0,5% of the other system cost... ok the other system is 200,000% better! NO WAY.
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In terms of speakers, the DIY crowd is on the same level as the commercial guy, assuming they have the same amount of financial resources. On the price gap between commercial and DIY efforts: if I can charge 20k as a manufacturer and people still plunk down the change, why stop. Thats just basic economics, and it isn't gonna change.
Correction: DCS DAC... try 200k 4 box Vivaldi, bout had a heart attack when I saw that one in Stereophile
Significantly.. in Western Civilization it's a proven tenent that Mfg 's sell their products on at 20% of the retail price.
Within that 20% A maker covers: Materials Costs(parts) Overhead, Labor, Taxes, Packaging/shipping AND profits.
As Always it's the Shmucks 'in the middle' that are the greed element.
Let THAT sink in for a moment
Within that 20% A maker covers: Materials Costs(parts) Overhead, Labor, Taxes, Packaging/shipping AND profits.
As Always it's the Shmucks 'in the middle' that are the greed element.
Let THAT sink in for a moment
The physics have always been there, even before mankind discovered them. Thiele and Small created a mathematical methodology to accurately model and predict the physical behavior of loudspeakers, which is quite different. The fact that Thiele and Small's work gathered dust on a shelf in Australia meant that it only started being brought into active use in the mid-1970's.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I am bit baffled by your response. To repeat, there was nothing about the physical models that Thiele and Small used that wasn't in standard Acoustical text books from 20 years earlier. This is something that pretty much everybody that has studied Acoustics as a subject will know. For example here is a link to Beranek (large pdf file) and no doubt by hunting around one could find links to some of the other standard Acoustics text books.
What Thiele and Small did was put it together in a form for engineers to use. What is often described as design rules. This is a solid worthwhile contribution but the basic modelling was described in text books in the 50s and probably (I haven't searched) in notes and papers in the 20s and 30s when a lot of theoretical progress was made.
Yes, thats my opinion but take a look at Hentai and Project Ryu. That is certainly what Id call SOTA DIY, he used the same modeling software that a company making 800k speakers uses. Another example is the DIY MBL over on the exotics forum.
They are hi end because they are expensive.
The rich guys just want to buy something that is expensive, not necessary to be good.
I met one dentist he has a huge house full of speakers, amps, TT that I never see before. He told me the price and my mouth can not close. But IMO, they are all POS. My DIY speakers are much better that his $50,000 speakers. When he showed me his tube mono amp he didn't know one channel is higher that the other.
He just needs to spend some money, good or not he doesn't care or doesn't know.
The rich guys just want to buy something that is expensive, not necessary to be good.
I met one dentist he has a huge house full of speakers, amps, TT that I never see before. He told me the price and my mouth can not close. But IMO, they are all POS. My DIY speakers are much better that his $50,000 speakers. When he showed me his tube mono amp he didn't know one channel is higher that the other.
He just needs to spend some money, good or not he doesn't care or doesn't know.
A copycat is not what I'd call 'on the same level'.
Hentai is an EE and pro loudspeaker/sound engineer.
First time I met the guy who runs Kharma audio, he sold quality DIY loudspeaker kits.
An MSc. in EE, with 35 years of experience and knowledge added, makes the million dollar difference.
This is a FFT fast fourier transform, using a calibrated microphone, with AudioTools from studio six digital, a very good ios audio software.
The parameters are the same, no smoothing, avererage decay calc,
The first graph (system 1) is a US$ 500,000 system and the second (system 2) is a US$ 12,000 system.
System 1:
Wilson Audio Maxx II
Audio Research 610T reference mono amps
DSC Dac
VTL tube Preamp
Speaker cables of $20,000...
System 2:
B&W 801 S3
Krell KAV-300il
Schiit Audio Gungnir
Speaker cables of $200
System 1 ($500,000)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=725812267515850&set=pcb.725812304182513&type=1&theater
System 2 ($12,000)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=725812194182524&set=pcb.725812304182513&type=1&theater
Tell me what you think...
The parameters are the same, no smoothing, avererage decay calc,
The first graph (system 1) is a US$ 500,000 system and the second (system 2) is a US$ 12,000 system.
System 1:
Wilson Audio Maxx II
Audio Research 610T reference mono amps
DSC Dac
VTL tube Preamp
Speaker cables of $20,000...
System 2:
B&W 801 S3
Krell KAV-300il
Schiit Audio Gungnir
Speaker cables of $200
System 1 ($500,000)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=725812267515850&set=pcb.725812304182513&type=1&theater
System 2 ($12,000)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=725812194182524&set=pcb.725812304182513&type=1&theater
Tell me what you think...
Problem is the lack of information, to be more precise, the big amount of desinformation that arounds audio industry, specially the audiophoolery. It's really easier to read a guy telling that this speaker sounds awesome with a lot of subjective terms than to really understand, read and learn with the Vance Dickason book.
Me thinks, there is no point arguing about price of expensive
products in general. Rich folks will buy, poor won't. And once
the deal is closed, the price is down by half.
The real question is, would the poor act differently if they were as rich.
One day, all of this stuff will end up on a junkyard or in a museum
.
products in general. Rich folks will buy, poor won't. And once
the deal is closed, the price is down by half.
The real question is, would the poor act differently if they were as rich.
One day, all of this stuff will end up on a junkyard or in a museum
.well who cares what I think, but
One of them costs much more than the other, and even the cheaper one is more than many of us have invested in our current system - but not of course counting the expenses accrued in getting to that point. The last time I tried to add up my first 20yrs in the hobby, I lost track after $50K - and that was 30yrs ago.
what do the screen shots tell us?
any of us might quite enjoy the sound of either
or not
as for Bill Gates - doesn't he use an iPod and Beats cans?
One of them costs much more than the other, and even the cheaper one is more than many of us have invested in our current system - but not of course counting the expenses accrued in getting to that point.
The last time I tried to add up my first 20yrs in the hobby, I lost track after $50K - and that was 30yrs ago. what do the screen shots tell us?
any of us might quite enjoy the sound of either
or not
as for Bill Gates - doesn't he use an iPod and Beats cans?
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