I believe those drivers are the ones, or very close to those that I'm thinking of. Give me a few days and I'll do some checking around and see if I can't dig up something.
Best Regards,
TerryO
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Now I understand why you have a grudge with rich folks!
You have got the very same drivers as the rich in their speakers,
yet yours don't work well.
What they need is a proper XO filter, right box volume and type
for your application.
Can't build a sports car with a lawnmower gearbox.
N
Yes, already buid one, but not with the passive crossover, I used a behringer dcx-2496 with 6 amps and crossed at the Troel's indications, but did not liked the result.
Do you think worth a try to make the passive crossovers? I'm afraid it did not sounds different compared with the active system...
Yes, already buid one, but not with the passive crossover, I used a behringer dcx-2496 with 6 amps and crossed at the Troel's indications, but did not liked the result.
Do you think worth a try to make the passive crossovers? I'm afraid it did not sounds different compared with the active system...
Describe the procedure of what you did with dcx while you were
designing filters for your drivers. Leave no detail out of how you
did the job. Filter type, steepness, delay, amp gain, amp types,
XO freqencies, driver polarities, what measurement software,
what mic, mic placement while measuring... everything you can recall.
As I said, you have got all the good bits for a quality speaker, so I
guess you must have done something wrong with the filter or your
expectations were unrealistic.
designing filters for your drivers. Leave no detail out of how you
did the job. Filter type, steepness, delay, amp gain, amp types,
XO freqencies, driver polarities, what measurement software,
what mic, mic placement while measuring... everything you can recall.
As I said, you have got all the good bits for a quality speaker, so I
guess you must have done something wrong with the filter or your
expectations were unrealistic.
Running a DEQX and multiple amplifiers is not quite the same as running a passive crossover.
If resistance is added in series with each driver (and shunt impedance compensation networks) then the active duplicate may approach the passive solution.
The parasitics in passive crossovers need to be considered.
Dan.
If resistance is added in series with each driver (and shunt impedance compensation networks) then the active duplicate may approach the passive solution.
The parasitics in passive crossovers need to be considered.
Dan.
Hi Lojzek, I designed the filters hearing the speaker. It was not a top-of-the-line eletronic measurement kind of design. To design crossovers it's necessary a lot of reference equipment, flat mics and a anachoic chamber and I do not have any, but I have good ears and some equipment that can show me something.
Using Mr. Troels crossovers indications, a 2nd order for the bass/mid on 200Hz and a 3rd for the tw at 2k, I did some measurements plotting voltages to the drivers and looked at the the impedance seen at the amplifiers and with my iphone ios Audio Tools, from Digita Design, I measured the acoustic response unsing FFT.
I noticed a big dip near the crossover fq at 250Hz and decided to invert the mid polarity, it really make it better after this invertion and I decided to use it this way.
I used some CDs that I used to hear a lot of different genres 'cause I like many types of music.
1) Oscar Peterson 'We Get Request' track 05
2) Burmester Vol.3 Melissa Walker - A Time For Love track 01
3) Roger Waters "Amused to Death" track 01
4) AC/DC Back in Black "Shoot to Thrill" track 02
5) Bach "The four great toccatas and fughes" E. Power Biggs track 01
For the frequencies I noticed that the 300Hz/3kHz was superior to the 200Hz/2kHz but the decicion was made using ears, not equipment.
As for the filters, tested everthing, butterworth, L/R, bessel... the best I decided to go was:
Woofer: Butterworth - order: 6db - crossed: 300Hz - phase: normal - gain: 0db
Mid-bass: Butterworth - order: 12dB - crossed: 300Hz - phase: inverted - gain: +1,5db
Tweeter: L/R - order: 24dB - crossed 3kHz - phase: normal - gain: -2dB
The gains were adjusted according the factory datasheet, the tw is a 91dB/1W and 6 ohms, the woofer is 88,5dB/1W and mid is 87dB/1W, both 8 ohms.
I used this configuration more than a year in my small room, 13 sq. mt. with a multiple subwoofer configuration that I learned from Mr. Earl Geddes.
After this time, I tried to use a software from Dirac, called Dirac Room Correction suite with a calibrated mic miniDSP UMIK-1. But this software showed me a very strange gap at the 200˜800Hz range and for correcting it with the optimized curve, I had to do a lot of gain compensation at this frequencies and this gave me a lot of distortion. I decided instead of going this frequency range up, to make the others down, and used a lot this and other curves like the JBL curve, Harman Kardon curve, ie...
But it was only after I listened to a B&W 801 S3 matrix, without subwoofers, no Dirac, that I decided to stop using them, the B&W simple configuration, with just one stereo amplifier and no sub really shocked me.
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Hi murillo,
you see, this is what I meant that you can't use lawnmower
(design by ear) technology to build a sports car. You don't
need top of the line gear, nor anechoic chamber to measure.
A decent sound card is not expensive.
Ask any expert, they will tell you the same.
You were saying something about measuring with UMIK-1.
That and the free REW (Room EQ Wizard) software will do.
Measure acoustic outputs of the drivers individually
in certain spots and then again their summed response.
Adjust the dcx settings until you achieve good FR and phase.
Then will your speakers compare to high quality commercial ones.
Ok, I know REW. Now it's your turn to explain me the exact procedure for doing this, Leaving no detail out of how you I have to do the job.
1 - What exact positions of the mic?
2 - I have also a behringer ecm-8000 but with no cal file, can use it?
3 - How many measurements?
4 - What you wanna say with good Frequency response and phase? A flat one?
5 - What about the phase and fr interaction between the drivers at the crossover point? How can I measure it if they are not playing at the same time?
6 - What signal used to measure? a pink noise? For each driver?
7 - What about the impulse response? it's not important to measure also?
I will take look at Van Dickason book to learn more about it, but if you could help me I will be granted.
Maybe a new thread about "how to adjust to perfection active filter crossovers using REW" is a good start...
1. We will cover that when the time is right, after your gear is up and running.
2. I don't see why not. Need phantom power supply, maybe mic preamp.
3. As many as needed to acomplish a reasonable goal.
4. You'll see. First things first.
5. Measure one, while the other is off, keep the graph in overlay, then
do the same for the other one, finally one measurement of them both.
6. The signal is defined in software you are using. I don't work with REW. MLS, log sine sweep are standard.
7. Impulse response is what is measured. FR, phase... are calculated from Impulse.
No, try something like " Help me design 3 way active XO filters using Behringer dcx".
Keep it as simple as possible.
2. I don't see why not. Need phantom power supply, maybe mic preamp.
3. As many as needed to acomplish a reasonable goal.
4. You'll see. First things first.
5. Measure one, while the other is off, keep the graph in overlay, then
do the same for the other one, finally one measurement of them both.
6. The signal is defined in software you are using. I don't work with REW. MLS, log sine sweep are standard.
7. Impulse response is what is measured. FR, phase... are calculated from Impulse.
No, try something like " Help me design 3 way active XO filters using Behringer dcx".
Keep it as simple as possible.
Muri, here is an example of multiway speaker measurements with REW. Box speaker has basically identical procedure, just skip dipole things there.
Prototyping a 4-way open-baffle speaker with the miniDSP 2×4
all instructions by Reekie http://www.hifizine.com/issues/minidsp-tutorials/
Minidsp's own info Acoustic Measurements
Prototyping a 4-way open-baffle speaker with the miniDSP 2×4
all instructions by Reekie http://www.hifizine.com/issues/minidsp-tutorials/
Minidsp's own info Acoustic Measurements
In my opinion, there are speakers that are worth the money (like Bowers & Wilkinson 800 series) and that are massive overpriced (like wilson audio alexandria's). I heard a 800D next to an alexandria setup (both amped with krell amps) and the wilson's did not sound better, altough they cost about 10x the price of the B&W's. And even the B&W's are expensive for what they are (but not outragous).
But if wilson audio can sell those speakers at that price, it's good for them. I would never spend so much on those, even when i'm rich like bill gates. And this applies to each type of audio equipment.
But each to his own. I like the speakes i build for 600€ also more than a lot of way more expensive speakers. Maybe i'm subjective, but that's not the point. I like them a lot and that is what matters.
And on the look, tastes differ. But most are also not what i like to see.
But if wilson audio can sell those speakers at that price, it's good for them. I would never spend so much on those, even when i'm rich like bill gates. And this applies to each type of audio equipment.
But each to his own. I like the speakes i build for 600€ also more than a lot of way more expensive speakers. Maybe i'm subjective, but that's not the point. I like them a lot and that is what matters.
And on the look, tastes differ. But most are also not what i like to see.
Sophistry.
$20K speakers are not required to build based on the physics.
$20K revenue per will buy fast cars and pay large mortgages.
Prices like this involve fools and their money, and sharp people and fools' money.
A 100 percent write-off in 20 years time boils down to $2k a year.
(overhere, the annual mortgage cost of a toilet seat, or a car you hope will keep running)
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