From the baffle presumably? It is the VTL cabinet with the back panel removed http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/PDFs/Eikona_VTL.pdf
You have a good placement for LF. There is an improvement when you raise the widebands to ear level (36") and move the subs back. It helps even out the LF. At least in the simulator.
I have found that if I use the REW room sim, then find (measure) where an actual null(s) is, I can adjust the sim room measurements or absorption level to get a better sim.
How high are the ceilings and what are they made from?
I have found that if I use the REW room sim, then find (measure) where an actual null(s) is, I can adjust the sim room measurements or absorption level to get a better sim.
How high are the ceilings and what are they made from?
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Yes, too close would be a problem. REW room sim only has sealed and ported so I chose ported.
I think what its implying is that having the widebands and subs is slightly different positions will even out the LF modes. You could move the subs back a little and move the widebands forward a little to get the same thing.
It's dinner for me now, I'll check back in 90min.
I think just looking at the on axis frequency response of these drivers on the manufacturers site gives a big clue. Some actual off axis measurements would no doubt confirm.
This is the text that goes with the below image
Scott said:
I can see how the tonal balance would definitely improve by listening to these off axis! If the tonal balance is too far off it probably dominates and the imaging and spaciousness suffers as a result.
Scott also said:
I have poor higher frequency hearing, but I am very sensitive to the higher frequencies being too hot. Thinking that boosting this range to compensate for your hearing loss is not in my opinion a way to better sound. If the manufacturer recommends listining off axis (and the graph above certainly to me suggests that is a must) then I think you have your answer!
Tony.
This is the text that goes with the below image
Scott said:
I can see how the tonal balance would definitely improve by listening to these off axis! If the tonal balance is too far off it probably dominates and the imaging and spaciousness suffers as a result.
Scott also said:
I have poor higher frequency hearing, but I am very sensitive to the higher frequencies being too hot. Thinking that boosting this range to compensate for your hearing loss is not in my opinion a way to better sound. If the manufacturer recommends listining off axis (and the graph above certainly to me suggests that is a must) then I think you have your answer!
Tony.
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Doesn't it make a difference that you are simulting "Ported" when these are Open Baffle?
dave
It's the room sim in REW.
It only does basic rectangular rooms and modes, but it is pretty good. It can be calibrated if you measure to find the actual nulls, then adjust its wall absorption parameters or tweak dimensions to "recreate" the room model.
It only has basic speaker models and I think it is using them to determine the LF rolloff slopes. I chose the one with steeper rolloff (ported).
This was just a exercise to see if standing up, changes the room modes experienced by Scott and could explain why it sounds different.
yes, from the baffle - 15x15 is no good
and from the elements of the driver itself like the outer suspension (surround) - all discontinuities from the loudspeaker's acoustial axis outwards - keep in mind that the driver operates full range
it is not easy to design a minimum diffraction full range unit and the result doesn't resemble Eikona:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
i really don't understand the talk about the subs here...
your subs are dipole and you should not be worrying about room modes and all that jazz...
leave your subs alone where they are on the side wall...
your WB driver has a 7dB peak on axis around 10kHz and then it rolls off.
all cone drivers show this peak before they roll off at their HF limit.
it is called beaming / blooming etc.
you have two options:
1. listen off axis (your best bet is to toe them in, rather then elevate or bend front/back)
2. cross them over to a tweeter at the point where the FR starts to rise (~7kHz in your case)... do not worry; crossing over this high won't take away from WB magic.
your subs are dipole and you should not be worrying about room modes and all that jazz...
leave your subs alone where they are on the side wall...
your WB driver has a 7dB peak on axis around 10kHz and then it rolls off.
all cone drivers show this peak before they roll off at their HF limit.
it is called beaming / blooming etc.
you have two options:
1. listen off axis (your best bet is to toe them in, rather then elevate or bend front/back)
2. cross them over to a tweeter at the point where the FR starts to rise (~7kHz in your case)... do not worry; crossing over this high won't take away from WB magic.
That's an interesting observation, thanks. Have you tried boosting the frequencies where your hearing is lacking?
I don't intend to move them. moving myself is easier
Dipoles can still excite room modes, just fewer of them hopefully. Personally I prefer them because they don't pressurize the room like other speakers, which I find more comfortable
Agreed, the baffle is far from ideal, I'm tempted to make it larger, off centre the driver, even cover with felt to improve diffraction
Hi Scott. I can't hear above about 13Khz, When I had my tweeter response slightly rising I found it very objectionable. I adjusted the padding to get them flat and was much happier. I've not tried actively eqing above 13Khz (not sure that I would notice anything), but that big hump around 10Khz if not dealt with I'm pretty sure will be causing issues.
Have you considered putting a notch filter on them? I did that with the little 4" SB speakers I made (which have a peak in this range as well). Though I only did it experimentally and have never made the second notch to do proper listening tests (another almost finished project)... SB acoustics SB12MNRX25-4 "full range" Build thread
Tony.
I haven't considered a notch. I've been reading more about the recommendation to listen at up to 30 degrees off axis, this probably explains the improvement when I move closer, it is suggested to angle them to cross well in front of the listening position. I don't want to move closer as this means getting nearer to the dipole bass null.
I have 2 notch filters on my speakers. They take out +6db bumps.
This is a convenient calculator for a RLC notch filter Series Notch Filter Designer / Calculator . At 10KHz the components will be relatively small.
Is it for all music, or just particular tracks? Sometimes a track's spectral content can yield where the problem is.
Did you try throwing a couple of duvets or blankets on the cork floor to test your HF floor bounce theory.
I'd really like to see the frequency response graph for 30deg off axis.
Have you tried toeing the speakers in or out to get that level of off axis when seated?
Attached is the sb accoustics fr plot for the driver I linked to above (re notch), just to give an indication of how another 4" driver looks at 30deg off axis compared to on axis. I suspect you would see similar reduction in the big peak of the Jordans.
Tony.
Have you tried toeing the speakers in or out to get that level of off axis when seated?
Attached is the sb accoustics fr plot for the driver I linked to above (re notch), just to give an indication of how another 4" driver looks at 30deg off axis compared to on axis. I suspect you would see similar reduction in the big peak of the Jordans.
Tony.
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