Did you catch this thread? Maybe, just maybe this could be your ticket. I'd EQ it in shape at the listening position, but it would be half way between size and performance. Not perfect up top, still a good size for bottom end.
I can't vouch for it, but it may be interesting to follow the discussion. I'm sure someone will try and use it full range.
I can follow your reasoning about bigger cones, yet it isn't that easy. Even small cones can have plenty of bass if your ear is close enough. Did you look into the subjective treads? Maybe all you need would be that 4", just how big is that desk anyway
.
Usually good low end takes up space.
I can't vouch for it, but it may be interesting to follow the discussion. I'm sure someone will try and use it full range.
I can follow your reasoning about bigger cones, yet it isn't that easy. Even small cones can have plenty of bass if your ear is close enough. Did you look into the subjective treads? Maybe all you need would be that 4", just how big is that desk anyway
.Usually good low end takes up space.
Yes, I was meaning to include this: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/299592-new-sb-acoustics-6-5-satori-possible-fr-use.html
Not saying this is the ticket, though the love for large cone area seems strong in this one.
Not saying this is the ticket, though the love for large cone area seems strong in this one
.According to my browser, it seems that I saw that driver sometime ago..
People in DIYaudio talk about getting the best sound they can get, from various speaker drivers and enclosures,
willing to pay a lot of money, and do a lot of work to get it,
yet there's one simple (and very cheap) thing, that in many cases surpasses all speakers.
What is it you ask?
Headphones..
Take this for example:
https://www.koss.com/headphones/ear-clip/ksc75
Koss - KSC75 headphones
I have this specific model for about 10 years, they are amazing
They cost 20$, and have amazing sound.
I remember the first time I listened with Koss headphones to some songs/tracks I have heard countless times before with speakers,
and I was amazed how I suddenly can hear new things that I did not hear before, when listening with speakers..
It especially happens with trance or generally electronic/synthesizer made music.
It was like someone improved the song/track making it more elaborate and more complex.
The reason mention this is because you said
"Even small cones can have plenty of bass if your ear is close enough."
Headphones are very small speakers, and (some of them) give unbelievable quality.
Does it mean that good speakers can never give us what good headphones give,
because headphones are closer to the ear and thus have an advantage that a speaker cannot have?
Does this quality advantage in shorter listening distance occur because with speakers we have some wave mechanics phenomenon (diffraction, interference, etc) that with headphones we don't have (or barely have)?
If yes, it means that no matter what we do, speakers will always be inferior to headphones.. :/
You know, this reminds me something.
People in DIYaudio talk about getting the best sound they can get, from various speaker drivers and enclosures,
willing to pay a lot of money, and do a lot of work to get it,
yet there's one simple (and very cheap) thing, that in many cases surpasses all speakers.
What is it you ask?
Headphones..
Take this for example:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
https://www.koss.com/headphones/ear-clip/ksc75
Koss - KSC75 headphones
I have this specific model for about 10 years, they are amazing
They cost 20$, and have amazing sound.
I remember the first time I listened with Koss headphones to some songs/tracks I have heard countless times before with speakers,
and I was amazed how I suddenly can hear new things that I did not hear before, when listening with speakers..
It especially happens with trance or generally electronic/synthesizer made music.
It was like someone improved the song/track making it more elaborate and more complex.
The reason mention this is because you said
"Even small cones can have plenty of bass if your ear is close enough."
Headphones are very small speakers, and (some of them) give unbelievable quality.
Does it mean that good speakers can never give us what good headphones give,
because headphones are closer to the ear and thus have an advantage that a speaker cannot have?
Does this quality advantage in shorter listening distance occur because with speakers we have some wave mechanics phenomenon (diffraction, interference, etc) that with headphones we don't have (or barely have)?
If yes, it means that no matter what we do, speakers will always be inferior to headphones.. :/
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While I have very satisfying headphones, German Maestro Gimp 8.35D, I do like listening to my speakers better. Consisting of 2x 25 drivers each, the Viva TC9-18-08. It used DSP and damping panels in the room.
This setup does things my Headphones can't. It makes me feel I'm right there.
The feel part will always be missing in headphones. You do make a good point though, with Stereo speakers you do suffer from interference at the listening spot. Sound from the left speaker will make it to the right ear and vice versa. There are some tricks that can improve on that "error".
However, these effects are less of an issue when listening in the near field. A close speaker setup can do remarkably well. But it won't give you all a larger setup has to offer. You pick your poison.
This setup does things my Headphones can't. It makes me feel I'm right there.
The feel part will always be missing in headphones. You do make a good point though, with Stereo speakers you do suffer from interference at the listening spot. Sound from the left speaker will make it to the right ear and vice versa. There are some tricks that can improve on that "error".
However, these effects are less of an issue when listening in the near field. A close speaker setup can do remarkably well. But it won't give you all a larger setup has to offer. You pick your poison.
250$
It's interesting how Koss is making betiful sound, and all in just 20$..
BTW they have a coupon now for the holidays, which decreases the already very fair prices by 25% - "HOLIDAY25".
(with such pricing, for everyone here who don't already have Koss - I recommend to buy)
I remember this pictureI do like listening to my speakers better. Consisting of 2x 25 drivers each, the Viva TC9-18-08. It used DSP and damping panels in the room.
BTW when I first saw it I was curous to ask:
If the 25 drivers were arranged in a different layout,
in which instead of one long 25 units line,
they would be in a layout of a 5x5 matrix of drivers,
would that improve the sound?
or maybe the opposite?
(is there a reason to prefer a long single line, vs a matrix of X*Y of the same number of drivers?)
Nice
So from the headphones example, and your sentence that
"Even small cones can have plenty of bass if your ear is close enough.",
wil it be correct to say, that when we have a driver that generates sound in various frequencies,
the bass will travel less distance from the driver, compared to the treble that will travel a longer distance?
(and that's the reason why for nearfield we can do well even medium diameter drivers?)
Call it whatever you like, removing the effects improved my listening experience
.
250$
It's interesting how Koss is making betiful sound, and all in just 20$..
BTW they have a coupon now for the holidays, which decreases the already very fair prices by 25% - "HOLIDAY25".
(with such pricing, for everyone here who don't already have Koss - I recommend to buy)
I remember this picture
BTW when I first saw it I was curous to ask:
If the 25 drivers were arranged in a different layout,
in which instead of one long 25 units line,
they would be in a layout of a 5x5 matrix of drivers,
would that improve the sound?
or maybe the opposite?
(is there a reason to prefer a long single line, vs a matrix of X*Y of the same number of drivers?)
Nice
So from the headphones example, and your sentence that
"Even small cones can have plenty of bass if your ear is close enough.",
wil it be correct to say, that when we have a driver that generates sound in various frequencies,
the bass will travel less distance from the driver, compared to the treble that will travel a longer distance?
(and that's the reason why for nearfield we can do well even medium diameter drivers?)
Got to run, will answer later...
Spaceman, it's interesting you mention the Koss Ksc75's. Look what I posted in 2013.
Koss KSC75's. Dont Forget This Giant Killer in all the ''Hidden Gem'' Hype.
My favorite headphones now are the Meze Audio 99 Classics. At first look you would think that they trade aesthetics for sound quality.. until you check out the review over at Innerfidelity. Not only are they Wall Of Fame rated- check out his YouTube review. He gushed over them. They are incredible headphones for any price. A steal IMHO for $300. The frequency response is crazy similar to the $1,000 Focal Elear's... which are just a tiny bit different from the $4000 Focal Utopia. Ofcourse they all shoot for the newly found Harman Headphone Response Curve.
Anyway, Headphones have the distinct advantage that they are fullrange crossover-less drivers that can produce the full audible frequency response. Also, they are not effected by room Acoustics- which is a gigantic contributor to how speakers sound.
Headphones have the large disadvantage that there is no cross-talk. In nature, sounds will be heard in both ears. Headphones take away this natural phenomenon, which creates a few things. First, it creates sound "in your head" instead of in front of or around you. Second, the brain gets confused by the extreme difference between left and right sounds (no crosstalk), and "listener fatigue" usually sets in for most people.
Koss KSC75's. Dont Forget This Giant Killer in all the ''Hidden Gem'' Hype.
My favorite headphones now are the Meze Audio 99 Classics. At first look you would think that they trade aesthetics for sound quality.. until you check out the review over at Innerfidelity. Not only are they Wall Of Fame rated- check out his YouTube review. He gushed over them. They are incredible headphones for any price. A steal IMHO for $300. The frequency response is crazy similar to the $1,000 Focal Elear's... which are just a tiny bit different from the $4000 Focal Utopia. Ofcourse they all shoot for the newly found Harman Headphone Response Curve.
Anyway, Headphones have the distinct advantage that they are fullrange crossover-less drivers that can produce the full audible frequency response. Also, they are not effected by room Acoustics- which is a gigantic contributor to how speakers sound.
Headphones have the large disadvantage that there is no cross-talk. In nature, sounds will be heard in both ears. Headphones take away this natural phenomenon, which creates a few things. First, it creates sound "in your head" instead of in front of or around you. Second, the brain gets confused by the extreme difference between left and right sounds (no crosstalk), and "listener fatigue" usually sets in for most people.
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Someone wrote there, on the first page:
He definitely described them well.
Amazing headphones, for a really fair price,
without all the marketing noise of today's famous headphones.
Is there really a reason to jump from 20$ to 300$, when the Koss are doing such an amazing job?
Is the x15 price really worth it?
It definitely does not give a x15 improvement over the Koss...
The main factor causing headphones advantage over speakers stems from not being affected by room acoustics?
Not by the fact that the sound from headphones simply has to go thru less distance in air?
(my intuition is that the air distance is the prominent factor, even before room acoustics.. Is that correct?)
I will check this soon, interesting to see if I notice it..
Your proposal has been tried a long time ago, If you Google: "sweet 16 speakers" you'll probably find all info you'd like on them.
There are more than one reason to prefer the long line array. One of their main features (if they are over ~70% of floor to ceiling length or longer) is they behave as if you have speakers that don't have a floor or ceiling reflection. That's a big plus. As room effects play a huge roll in what you hear at the listening spot. Due to our ears being on the side of our heads the line array has a better shot to fool our brain than the square proposal could deliver.
I'm sure you can find lots of info on this online.
Not what I was getting at. Sound level from most speakers will drop 6 dB for each doubling of distance. (line arrays drop less over the area where they truly function as a line array) This is why up close a smaller speaker can have satisfying bass, but due to their size and movement limits cannot produce that same level at larger distances.
At close distance, the room will be less of an influence, this is due to the direct vs indirect sound level balance. At close range to speakers the direct sound will dominate because the indirect sound has to travel longer to reflect back. Making it's level much lower compared to the direct sound from the speakers. (not true with a wall nearby of course, as the sound can still reflect off of close by surfaces, keeping a higher level)
Headphones let you hear the direct sound. No room influences, no cross talk.
The room has a very determining role in what you hear in a normal stereo setup in , for example, a living room.
To really hear the music, without room effects isn't that easy. Picture a studio and look at what they have in place to absorb and/or diffuse the indirect sound.
Combine that with using near field setups to judge the sound and the room becomes less dominant.
Every time reflections are present you will hear it. Yet your brain has been trained during your life to ignore (most of) it. When someone you know talks to you, you will recognise his or her voice. Whether you talk in a room or outside without reflective borders. This is a process you do not think about. Yet, it does provide your brain with queues about the room you're in.
If you place big floor standing speakers in a room without regard for the reflections they may cause, chances are big those reflections will give your brain a clue where the speakers are placed, out in the room. Close your eyes and listen. Can you point out the speakers?
In a stereo setup where care has been taken, both in speaker design and room effects, you will no longer be able to hear the speaker position. You just hear the music and if the song has it, the position of each separate part of that music. One of the aspects of Stereo that's worth to re-create.
Well, I'll leave it at this. I have no clue what you do know or don't. Maybe I'm just repeating what you already know. The biggest disadvantage for a speaker usually is the room. Unless you're willing to let both work together. Or create a near field listening spot. It will still help to battle reflections in that near field setup. Especially with a close by wall or desk.
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Surprising, I did not know such an effect can happen..
(not knowing where the speakers are, and feeling it's coming from all around)
thought that to get it, one needs to spread speakers all around him,
imagine for example a spherical room shape, and a spherical layout of many speakers..
The studio picture is very nice..
Tho not something one would do in his house/bedroom, for improving listening to music
No - I didn't know all that,
it's completely new to me.
Thank you for it.
Will being outside, in an open environment and in a completely quiet place,
solve all this?
Or outside has its problems too?
Glad I responded then, it really is a marvellous experience. Though I do have this disappearing act, it does not mean it's the most important for me, I value tonal balance even more.
You can have both, if you play a mono track, the music should come from straight between the speakers and no distractions from the sides. That's usually a good start.
Being outside will help, if the speaker doesn't have any diffraction problems of it's own.
It will be harder to get bass at the same levels as indoors, there would be no room gain.
All of that can be fixed with cone area and power. Or sit up close.
You wouldn't need to go to the extremes as in that studio picture for a cool Stereo effect. You could get a way more satisfying result with that near field setup if you figure out where the first reflections (from speakers to wall, back to your ear) are happening and placed some damping there. The material and thickness of the damping determines to what frequency limit it absorbs. It's easier to absorb high frequencies, lower frequencies have longer wave lengths and need other solutions. Though if you would place damping behind that desk setup you would notice an improvement. The desk itself would still reflect, it also matters how close the side walls are to your speakers and listening setup.
My girlfriend still can't wrap her head around what my speakers do, she points at the wall straight in front in disbelieve and says: how can I hear them there, when the speakers are way over to the sides. That's a first step, I'm assuming you heard sound coming from between the speakers. I figure not everyone will know what stereo can do.
For most people that never really played with it Stereo is just that, some music coming from ahead and side effects coming from the speaker position.
Your eyes might have a stronger influence over your ears. Close your eyes and let the music tell you where it's coming from. If the Stereo effect is strong enough not even your eye sight can stop this from happening.
I should put in a disclaimer, some people are never able to hear music in what is called the phantom center. Let's hope you're not one of them.
One more thing to add, have you ever tried the binaural test tracks with those headphones you rave about? Listen to this, close your eyes and listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5X9oUNSYyE
You can have both, if you play a mono track, the music should come from straight between the speakers and no distractions from the sides. That's usually a good start.
Being outside will help, if the speaker doesn't have any diffraction problems of it's own.
It will be harder to get bass at the same levels as indoors, there would be no room gain.
All of that can be fixed with cone area and power. Or sit up close.
You wouldn't need to go to the extremes as in that studio picture for a cool Stereo effect. You could get a way more satisfying result with that near field setup if you figure out where the first reflections (from speakers to wall, back to your ear) are happening and placed some damping there. The material and thickness of the damping determines to what frequency limit it absorbs. It's easier to absorb high frequencies, lower frequencies have longer wave lengths and need other solutions. Though if you would place damping behind that desk setup you would notice an improvement. The desk itself would still reflect, it also matters how close the side walls are to your speakers and listening setup.
My girlfriend still can't wrap her head around what my speakers do, she points at the wall straight in front in disbelieve and says: how can I hear them there, when the speakers are way over to the sides. That's a first step, I'm assuming you heard sound coming from between the speakers. I figure not everyone will know what stereo can do.
For most people that never really played with it Stereo is just that, some music coming from ahead and side effects coming from the speaker position.
Your eyes might have a stronger influence over your ears. Close your eyes and let the music tell you where it's coming from. If the Stereo effect is strong enough not even your eye sight can stop this from happening.
I should put in a disclaimer, some people are never able to hear music in what is called the phantom center. Let's hope you're not one of them.
One more thing to add, have you ever tried the binaural test tracks with those headphones you rave about? Listen to this, close your eyes and listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5X9oUNSYyE
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Is there also a recommended distance to keep between the speakers and the wall behind them?
No, haven't tried it,
will do it this evening
BTW I ordered the Edifier R1280T amplified speakers.
Their good reviews, the fact that they are #1 on amazon for Bookshelf,
and their really fair pricing, made me think they are definitely worth a try.
Hopefully they will be as good as their so many reviews are.
(BTW, also the fact that they are already in an enclosure and I don't have to build one myself, is an advantage for me, I must admit..
because it will not be easy for me to get an enclosure)
I am also going to buy the TC9FD, just because they were so recommended.
(but for them, I will have to get a nice enclosure somehow. I will search for a wood craft box with appropriate dimensions, and then go to some place to make the necessary round hole for the driver)
Regarding the B652-Air, I leave them aside for now.
But would definitely be interested to hear them, If I get the chance in some place that has them.
Currently they are not sold in my country, so no store to hear them at.
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It would depend on the speaker design. Look up "baffle step" to learn more about it.
Good luck! Save bet to first try some ready made speakers. Play with them and get a feel for what they can do for you.
As far as the TC9, each speaker needs a different enclosure to perform their best. A lot of designs on here though. But it's not as simple as putting a speaker in a box.
On the Koss Ksc75's vs higher priced headphones, it depends on how much performance you want. If a perfect headphone was 100% as reference, I'd say the Ksc75's are 75% where the the Meze audio 99 classics are 85-90%. That last 5-8% costs a few grand, and perfection doesn't exist. The cost of diminishing returns is extremely strong in this hobby.
Some people would think I'm crazy for saying that.. I say spend $10-15, order them online, and give the Koss KSC75's a try.
Either Koss got extremely stupid lucky designing them, or the designer had damn good ears. According to Koss' website they were released in 2004. Harman spent tons of money coming up with a target headphone response some 10 years later to put an end to the debate on how headphones should measure..
Unfortunately headphone.com didn't have measurements on the Meze Audio 99 Classics, but it's very similar to the NAD HP 50 because they both shoot for the Harman Headphone Target Curve. Check out how similar the KSC75's are.
Obviously the more expensive 99 Classics and HP 50 will have better bass response. They should for the increase in cost.
Anyway, if you need a design for the TC9FD, I can design you a simple filter-less ported box. Just let me know the distance between your desk (when your sitting at it obviously) and the center of your ear level.
Some people would think I'm crazy for saying that.. I say spend $10-15, order them online, and give the Koss KSC75's a try.
Either Koss got extremely stupid lucky designing them, or the designer had damn good ears. According to Koss' website they were released in 2004. Harman spent tons of money coming up with a target headphone response some 10 years later to put an end to the debate on how headphones should measure..
Unfortunately headphone.com didn't have measurements on the Meze Audio 99 Classics, but it's very similar to the NAD HP 50 because they both shoot for the Harman Headphone Target Curve. Check out how similar the KSC75's are.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Obviously the more expensive 99 Classics and HP 50 will have better bass response. They should for the increase in cost.
Anyway, if you need a design for the TC9FD, I can design you a simple filter-less ported box. Just let me know the distance between your desk (when your sitting at it obviously) and the center of your ear level.
Thank you
I will update here regarding how they are, after I receive them and let them burn-in a bit
The answer is probably B
That's why he's so successful.
What do you mean by the last sentence?
That Harman's headphones are close to perfect?
Surprisingly close
Thank you very much, will ask for it after I order them..
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