Actually the opposite, breakup is due to mechanical dampening issues. When a transient excites one of these modes the result is increased TIM in the drivers passband. Frequency can be seen as wavelength and time and are inseparable, therefore a transient that rises at the rate of the mode causes excitation of that mode which chaotically modulates the signal.
Sometimes I wonder if this increased sense of accuracy found in the metal cone drivers might be artificially heightened by TIM. Don't know the answer to that, don't use metal coned drivers because of the breakup issue. Forces one to bend over backward getting them to sound ok.
Sometimes I wonder if this increased sense of accuracy found in the metal cone drivers might be artificially heightened by TIM. Don't know the answer to that, don't use metal coned drivers because of the breakup issue. Forces one to bend over backward getting them to sound ok.
'Time-out' meaning not listening for a period to allow yourself to 'recover', to regain energy will depend a lot on the individual and overall circumstances, not so much the system. If your ears have been significanty stressed, and there is a distinct ringing afterwards then obviously keep away from sound for some time.
Time-out can also be a positive thing: if I listen to a high energy rock album at a decent volume then I'm replete by the end of it, I have no need for listening to more - I go and do something else, not because I'm sick of the music but because I feel the need for some balance in my activities ...
"Not because I'm sick of the music..."
Haven't I mentioned that even if someone cannot hear this micro fatigue, it will still affect him. When the same thing happen to me then i will know for sure that my system is not good enough. This alarm system has guided me to achieve a system that i want to listen even when i sleep. Didnt go to work or didnt sleep at night just because didnt want to part with music is not uncommon. Ask Charles Darwin who has got this "noble experience" everyday.
Remember, I'm including elevated volume levels in the mix - as in, that the only thing you can hear is the music. If it is loud enough that it becomes a major exercise to have a conversation with someone at the same time then continuous, hour after hour, listening at these levels will probably not suit everyone ...
Of course at lower levels it's a whole different ball game ...
Of course at lower levels it's a whole different ball game ...
I'm still not quite getting it. Say it's a driver with a huge wobble/resonance/breakup at 12 kHz (as measured with a swept sine wave at a single amplitude). Are you saying that even if we cross over to the tweeter at 3 kHz with a steep filter, there are transient signals that can still excite that resonance..?
I was just giving a hint
May be it is good idea to have an electronic feature that can mute guitar, drum and every each instrument so we can concentrate on the vocal of the singer hehe.
Btw, with a good system every each of the instruments can be followed clearly and each of them, individually, should be musical given that it is from good musicians. We should be able to admire each of the musicians of the band.
"Not because I'm sick of the music..."
Haven't I mentioned that even if someone cannot hear this micro fatigue, it will still affect him. When the same thing happen to me then i will know for sure that my system is not good enough. This alarm system has guided me to achieve a system that i want to listen even when i sleep. Didnt go to work or didnt sleep at night just because didnt want to part with music is not uncommon. Ask Charles Darwin who has got this "noble experience" everyday.
I'm quite choosey as to when I switch my stereo on as I find it almost impossible to switch it off again.
So I won't play music if I have an appointment within a few hours (I'd be late), before dinner (it would get cold) or if there is a live event on TV I want to watch (I'd miss it).
The only reason I switch it off sometimes is when family or neighbours require me to play it quietly below my preferred level since that is really annoying. On the other hand I've never had ringing in my ears from my own stereo regardless of volume or how long I've been listening.
I usually listen in the mid 90dB range or a bit higher, I like to feel the bass as much as hearing it.
Mind you at 48 years of age I can't hear much above 18kHz anymore but there isn't much there other than the tss-tss from the cymbals anyway.
Mondo
Thanks!I agree, at least partly. However, I do use metal coned drivers - also some HDA, paper, but no pure kevlar/carbon fibre/glassfibre.
All their breakups are abhorrent to my ears. The broader band paper mushiness/breakup always causes me issues, since it usually occurs lower and continues up and up in frequency (in my experience). Then its the increased THD that accompanies the breakup which annoys me instead.
The HDA are great, to a point, at which the breakup is sharper than the paper, but less razor sharp than metal cones (to my ears at least). Instead they just sound a bit quacky when stretched too high.
Metal are pointy sharp breakups, and narrow band. Sure it complicates the crossover compared to say a paper cone, but in all pragmatic reality not an awful lot more involved. I can honestly say Im sure that the breakup of my AL130s could be measured (it should be at around -30dB), but I sure cant hear it at my listening levels. Crank it up to over 90dB and it pops out a little, but then that could also be my amplifier beginning to complain.
So I generally listen at sub 90 dB within the constraints of my desire to be deafened, amplifier capabilities and neighbourhood sensibilities.
Very basically I liken a rigid cone and its advantages to the advantages of rigid (and light) cabinet construction: narrow band, high Q resonance which should be easier to damp out than a more broadband excitation.
Its rather counter intuitive that so many here advocate rigid cab design (and slate MDF) but yet those same folks don't subscribe to a rigid cone design.....and its a little illogical.
Whats good for the goose........
Perhaps TIM is largely unavoidable when one driver is covering 6 or 7 octaves? You either go for as pistonic as possible and as many drivers as possible covering a small band, or go the opposite way and live with the distortion.
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Are you not quite getting it, or you're thinking that Greebster is wrong?
I have divided the fatigue as driver related or breakups and crossover related. Any fatigue which is not breakup is someway related to phase including group delay.
Small input voltage of certain frequency may excite bigger than acceptable cone movement. This is breakup. Distortion is, whatever the cause, the existence of different unwanted cone excitation which is usually small in amplitude but change the sound to become fatiguing. A common convention is that the existence of high order distortion is more fatiguing than the existence of second order one. Transient distortion can happen in irregular location relative to the fundamental frequency and the effect is still hypothetical.
I don't really care with theory or people opinion but I know what will cause fatigue to my ears. Theory only needed to help me get rid of the fatigue. Most if not all of my knowledge is from my listening experience not from reading.
Why illogical? I subscribe to rigid cones for a reason. But i can see justification not to do so:
(1) If your xo skill is bad why take risk??
(2) There is no clear situation as of when a problematic rigid cone has been solved and not an issue anymore. Why not clear? Because people's sensitivity to fatigue is different to each other. One ear may think that the rigid cone has already been tamed and not fatiguing but different ears may not think so.
Always compare with the best paper cone, which is less fatiguing, from price perspective and technical compromises. Then comes justification.
When I do a comparison I'll look for the absolute minimal breakup. If it doesn't meet my expectations, it's disregarded and on to the next. Price doesn't play too much of a role in this decision. Recently I choose a $20 midbass over anything else. Since the only real difference between these drivers was in faraday shielding of the motor, I could not in good conscience choose a driver that costs $200 more. So I'll have those poles removed and turned down the street and do my own mods. Difference, 4 cost $80 whereas 4 of the others cost nearly $900. Plenty of money to do any mods and still save three quarters the cost at least. Even if one or two gets trashed, they're cheap enough and I have a dozen.
I don't think TIM can be eliminated, but it can be suppressed surely by choosing a driver with the smallest amount of breakup. As to say it illogical and counter to design, sure there are those whom have their 800 pound gorillas, but even that isn't necessary in all designs.
If we look at what is wanted in the perfect speaker, there would be no breakup and the response would fall off at a natural rate above it's effective diameter. Not extended out into the heavens, or breaking up with high peaks. I'm not saying metal can't work, have seen a few that have my attention, just that most utterly fail. I'm simply not a willing guinea pig or beta tester that pays full retail.
Jay, I think you misunderstood I do like rigid cones. The way I imagine it in a paper, HDA or GRP is that there are just many small breakups some coincide others not. In metal and maybe the ceramics, the resonance are more ordered. So paper can be more benign but ultimately being some audio fuzziness, a loss of resolution. In metal perhaps the accuracy remains up until a narrower band (where they were bunched up by the rigidity. Perhaps also the more ordered nature would explain its more objectionable sound in breakup, even when attenuated. That's if im not talking garbage lol
So breakup should not be defined as a frequency-dependent issue, but a "rate" dependent issue..? (I did mention slew rate earlier, but you said it was just the opposite).
No I didn't misunderstand you then. I just think that what you think illogical is logical.
We have close to $3000 Sonic Anima and $7000 Joseph Audio Pulsar. Whether the outcome of the rigid cone justifies the price people may differ in opinion. Lyn Olson in this thread has opined that titanium cone is fatiguing while somebody else like you may disagree.
Agree that one important parameter of rigid cone is resolution. But somebody else like Greebster might think that the resolution is the effect of TIM
That is a decision based on price. If it is $100 instead of $20 you may have chosen other option. We all human. We think in $
Slew rate is something else. That is what limits the rate a transient can occur.
Think of a rap of a drum stick. It will be very fast rising with a slew of overtones produced by the skin of the head. The initial impact rises at a very high rate akin to the highest harmonic produced. If this rate of change (time) crosses the breakup modes (frequency) eg Time = Frequency will cause this issue and is propogated thoughout the lower band in a somewhat chaotic manner.
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