May be from the source (spkr, amp, digital,etc), what its feel like (weigting ear, pushing inner ear, makes angry, makes bored,etc), final fatiguing level (annoying, hurt, very hurt then don't want hear anything even nature environtment sound), etc. Is that too many?
Usually the best explanation is that the sound is not "real" enough - the brain has to put too much effort into extracting out the information which are the parts of the musical message - separating that from the 'dross'. After a while, the hearing system says, "I've had enough of this hard yakka - I want a break!" -- and so you experience 'fatigue' - the body saying to you, "Time-out!!" ...
I will never give up trying active xo with opamp or discrete. Besides, I have hundreds of hi quality opamps.
From theory alone it is clear that vented is more complicated than sealed. In practice, what makes it more difficult is the precision required and how calculation may differ from reality. Slight change to port length, volume, even stuffing and position of port changes the design. I dont believe in the effectiveness of those box simulation tools. It may help only in 20% of the process.
I dont get this.
With low distortion system, we can conversate while music play at hi spl. This is a well known characteristics. I always watch movie on tv with music playing on my system.
Agree. Cone breakup is very critical at mediocre systems to hi end systems. At mediocre systems breakup is obvious. At better systems i found that it is not obvious but detrimental.
Phase issue for me is still hypothetical. At mediocre systems nobody even care or observe the existence of it because things such as thd, S/N, breakups dominates the problem.
When people start to use expensive speakers and ultra low thd amplifiers and still miss "something" then they start to question imd, distortion spectrum, slew rate, open loop gain and phase margin and the like
Because your opamp based amp is too simple, is that 140watter ua741?
I built that amp 25 years ago. Now i still have many of its pcb but i use my own designs with bjt, darlington and mosfet. When good quality opamp is used the old design sounds relatively good u know. The output stage topology is favored by many.Im collecting the best amp of each topology and this topology is rarely used so i have built whatever exist on the net. Actually less have been found from internet.
I have plenty of ultra hi slew rate opamps in TO3 package, also the rare and sweet sounding metal gold pin opa111.
I understand this. But misleading to associate "audiophile" systems to fatiguing systems. But i think i know how it became so.
Audiophiles are those whose interest on audio reproduction is more than anything else. They will try to improve their system beyond their financial capacity. The trend of the improvement is towards "impressive" sound. Thats where they start to get lost.
I'm a die hard fan of LP's, back before the CD frenzy, Turned many a MFSL album on a Denon DP-52f that was mod'd and chassis damped. Used a Shure V15 type 5 hyperelliptical and then the Micro Ridge stylus and the sonics, nuances were far superior to anything digital. When I finally jumped on board, with a phillips with a cast chassis mod'd out to the gills no less, sounded brash in your face harsh, yet this was never heard on the MFSL version or for that matter the normal production version. Listening tests proved to me that there was something off in the way the analog was converted to digital. I did have some fine digital recording, mostly simple mic'd acoustic guitar and some binaural recordings direct digital that did not have this issue. Found many people liking this "sound" it was in you face exciting to them. Marketing picked up on what this new sound everyone loved so much was(n't) and started to design systems that enhanced this extra detail, feeling it was more real. Furthest from the truth, but once that ball got rolling it's taken 2 decades to recover from and probably another century or two to be rid of.
This didn't get any comment, but I find it interesting and a good point. A lot of what I find annoying and tiring in a system will be >1.5KHz. As you say, musically that's almost all harmonics. Harmonics are important.
Is it just our heightened sensitivity at those frequencies that make them tiring, or is there something else going on?
That's very correct statement although it's hard to turn back from "impressiveness" once you got a taste for it. For longer time I thought that tube electronics will guaranty instant "musicality" and lack of fatigue but this had not proven true. I would agree that upper midrange over 1.5 kHz is a main cause of fatigue but monotonous boom ~100hz is getting on the nerve as well.
centre yourself Grasshopper
I personally think we (not the Royal 'we' but the DIYA audiophile 'we') are over thinking the whole subject of listener fatigue. As is usual for here....
I was led to believe (from reading) that excess SPLpeaking/combing/THD within the ears' sensitive range (1-4k) was the primary cause of listener fatigue.
The only other thing i can attempt to attribute 'fatigue' to is the rigours of Life.
Unless your lucky enough to live in the wilds of some rural isolated countryside paradise, noise in any form, including music is going to fatigue the brain. This is especially true in our modern 'rat race' lives.
I work in a noise saturated factory, and even by complying with HSE requirements and wearing hearing protection, the sound of a 40 MW generator whining away for 6 hours can literally fatigue me so much I will fall asleep (wearing hearing protection in a 100+ dBA environment)
Above 100dB certain tones literally rattle your bones, and that includes mid and HF (exciter whine and commutator noise) even with hearing protection you feel the tone in the nerves in your flesh and skin.
At the end of the day, the brain craves silence as much as it craves stimulation
I personally think we (not the Royal 'we' but the DIYA audiophile 'we') are over thinking the whole subject of listener fatigue. As is usual for here....
I was led to believe (from reading) that excess SPLpeaking/combing/THD within the ears' sensitive range (1-4k) was the primary cause of listener fatigue.
The only other thing i can attempt to attribute 'fatigue' to is the rigours of Life.
Unless your lucky enough to live in the wilds of some rural isolated countryside paradise, noise in any form, including music is going to fatigue the brain. This is especially true in our modern 'rat race' lives.
I work in a noise saturated factory, and even by complying with HSE requirements and wearing hearing protection, the sound of a 40 MW generator whining away for 6 hours can literally fatigue me so much I will fall asleep (wearing hearing protection in a 100+ dBA environment)
Above 100dB certain tones literally rattle your bones, and that includes mid and HF (exciter whine and commutator noise) even with hearing protection you feel the tone in the nerves in your flesh and skin.
At the end of the day, the brain craves silence as much as it craves stimulation
I am luckily live in jungle. Now I am in wonosobo, "wono" means jungle "sobo" means wandering. It is a famous dieng plateau.
Did you accept one system with 10minute time-out is ok compared with system with 2days time-out?
. Now I am in wonosobo, "wono" means jungle "sobo" means wandering. It is a famous dieng plateau.Did you accept one system with 10minute time-out is ok compared with system with 2days time-out?
I ever heard better sounded one from someone tweak, he lives in pati and very old spending his life for tweaking this 140watter
. The output stages alone indeed is already good.My 071 based is differrent, may be sounded closer to your aleph than 140watter. Using 2sk43 from sony (it is now obsolete, that is why I keep this amp carefully as one of my reference). Very low fatiguing (may be still has something in bass) and very enjoyable most if I coming home in very tired condition, it become more enjoyable.
Sometimes I don't think we comment on what we agree on in general
This has been posted before https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Akustik_-_Richtungsbänder.svg
And several, including myself have discussed over here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/121385-advantages-floor-coupled-up-firing-speakers.html
The ear is tuned to ~1kHz so we must be most sensitive to phase shift and coloration, peaking at around 4k. I try to stay away from 3-5k range due to this sensitivity. That would require a tweeter to be crossed lower than typical, personal preference being ~2k or lower. This causes additional issue for us where the typical tweeter starts to really cause distortion compounding the problem. Toss in phase and or physical time alignment errors and you've got stress, 100% guaranteed every time. If you notice 'Richtungsbestimmende Bänder' and my choice of crossover point. This correlates quite well with my experience.
Having a miniDSP I played with the cross point over a ~ octave range eg 2-5k and noticed an increase in disconnect between drivers, causing vocals to become flat, despite good phase tracking. Now I didn't stop there and conclude that was that. But rather took it another step, realizing the narrowing of polar response with a 6.5", which would happen above ~2k. So I switched out the micbass for a fe103 and a Monsoon PM-9 planar. The planar is quite the nice driver covering a range of 200-10k well. It's width dictates a crossover point of ~5k before beaming gets bad and the fe103 which can hit nearly 4k before beaming. All showed this result once normalized. Then switched out the AMT for an old standby Audax 1" which is known to breakup below 3.5 (dispite manufactures claim of 2k when it's Fs is 1.7k lol) and repeated test.
My conclusion was, if the range was extended beyond the power response of the mid, the vocals would fall flat. If you overly extended the usable range of a tweeter would become edgy. If the phase didn't track vocals would become disjointed and edgy, confusing to make out exactly what is sung.
Will have to add that neither the 6.5" midbass or the planar have a peaky breakup, planar none and the midbass peak is 2dB over average centered about 4.8k before rolling off in a nice way. Tried my best to take each element at it's best and extend the ranges of all either on the high or the low end in respect to power response, distortion et al.
I'll mention another point I've stated before and that's if a driver has bad breakup, regardless of shunting that range into oblivion with a crossover/EQ/notch filter, will still produce a greatly magnified level of TIM at any point in the pass band when a transient rises at the rate of the breakup. Normally I stay away from such drivers, so how much this affects the tone I don't know, but would not want anything to pummel those subtle nuances that allow the detail to come through.
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