I'm not, only concerned with unloaded driver below resonance. Highpass filter takes care of that.
Can you blame him? Blood letting the magic smoke isn't good for ones rep or business
Other than back pain, not loosing a wink.
Not really correct- Aperiodic and well-damped TLs can present a very mild, low Q resonance bump, much closer to the DCR than the peak in a sealed enclosure.
Yes, the theoretical ideal is a perfectly damped in-box resonance (complex aperiodic) with an infinite volume. Under those conditions impedance should be "flat" and phase rotation should be at a minimum for any given driver.
Aperiodic, forgot about that one. Doh
How many well designed TL's are there that exhibit this < I've been working this out in my own design for some months, easier said than done. (well it is done now, for months)
The Accidental MLTL scares me looking at what is going on, wrong wrong wrong
Well up to a few months ago, I was running a conventional system with a choice of a couple of amps, and I churned through a few pairs of commercial speakers off eBay (Mission, Tannoy, KEF, B&W, floorstanders and stand mount), all off a CD player or PC output (no analogue). I found that it would sound good for the first few minutes, then I would begin to turn up the volume, and it would begin to sound a little strained, maybe a bit lean. Maybe a brief touch of ringing in the ears when a track stopped. It would be the next day when I would notice a feeling of 'soreness' in the ears, and I would maybe take a night off from listening to give my ears a chance to recover. I just thought this what an audio system was like, and that my ears would probably be feeling the same had I listened to the live event, anyway.
It's only recently that I've 'gone active' using the self same amps (plus another) with large sealed speakers and DSP inversion of the impulse response of each driver, and I don't get that sore feeling in the ears at all, now, even though I listen pretty loud. It's immediately noticeable as a much better, less strained, sweeter sound.
Not really. Dan d'agustino, soulution, phase linear, many accuphase, etc
Ringing of stability? may be.
No. TL071 has lower fatiguing than 5534, 5534 is faster.
No. What about Toa horn?
May be.
Cone breakup.
Efficient horn is less fatiguing.
Note: Harbeth also using very thick sealed midrange box and vented woofer with thin box. That showing that common amplifier used are good in bass, and annoying mid-high.
No, but most in high. That is why I suspect that the cause is amplifier damping phases.
I guess i know where you came from. I have long didnt get in touch with that kind of distortion.
I always test my system with listening to it when i go to sleep and observe my feeling when i wake up. Why? When you are interested in serious listening you will tolerate distortion but in certain situations you wont.
Just like when u have toothache u dont want to hear noises
I just woke up and still lying on bed listening to music rite now.
I came from Kudus
.. Jakarta is sooo noisy and very hot, can't sleep. I can't do any good listening there.
Honestly you are comparing a TL071 to a 5534?!
Can you hear the music over the crap S/N ratio? I'm infinitely aware of what this opamp can do and does, having built many designs based on it back around 1980. Noise noise noise is all I can say.
5534 is far better, but by todays standards isn't of much value either.
Can you hear the music over the crap S/N ratio? I'm infinitely aware of what this opamp can do and does, having built many designs based on it back around 1980. Noise noise noise is all I can say.
5534 is far better, but by todays standards isn't of much value either.
Yeah, listening fatigue is a bit of a wishy washy term.
There's a lot of copying of designs and design mantra without actually understanding it.
I fall into this too. After a long time I've kind of realized what I like and what I try to avoid.
But I haven't heard enough designs to really know.
As some one else here already stated, I would also like to go to a DIY event and have a listen.
Last edited:
Yes 5534 is far better in measurement and listening, but for fatiguing, TL071 is a bit lower. I still have an amp with TL071 based and it is enjoyable.
Why the contradictory statement? Hisssssssssssssssssssssssss is fatiguing due to the masking it does to the signal. Perhaps the difference is do to feedback scheme used or some other component causing issue. Were the inputs biased, DC offset nulled out better on one than the other. Please I would like to know how you define fatigue. Not the mish mash stated earlier, like there is different kinds of imaging... what does that even mean?
Fatiguie is not noise. Every sound that causing us uncomfort to what we hear after some time and rather turn it off is fatiguing.Why the contradictory statement? Hisssssssssssssssssssssssss is fatiguing due to the masking it does to the signal. Perhaps the difference is do to feedback scheme used or some other component causing issue. Were the inputs biased, DC offset nulled out better on one than the other. Please I would like to know how you define fatigue. Not the mish mash stated earlier, like there is different kinds of imaging... what does that even mean?
Realty: Given a modern amp in good condition with enough power, we are talking about speaker and room nonlinearity.
Reality: We are looking for fr peaks.
Real Reality (as this is the era of non-real reality) let's actually go to the real source. It's not your gear. It's what you are listening too. I can almost guarantee that if you are not listening to jazz or classical, you are listening to overcompressed waveforms driven by market forces done by people such as I at the express request of the label or artist.
Reality: We are looking for fr peaks.
Real Reality (as this is the era of non-real reality) let's actually go to the real source. It's not your gear. It's what you are listening too. I can almost guarantee that if you are not listening to jazz or classical, you are listening to overcompressed waveforms driven by market forces done by people such as I at the express request of the label or artist.
Last edited:
I dont understand what u mean with time course but I will try to answer.
There are many kinds of fatigue. It doesnt happen abruptly or gradually from system perspective. It is there from the beginning as constant characteristics of the system. It is the human who has different speed and sensitivity in recognizing the fatiguing character.
From this thread u can see that many dont even have an idea of the various kind of fatigue. But i always say that even if u cannot hear it it doesnt mean that you are not affected. You can be affected after a long time, sometimes you dont even recognize it. You can be changing systems because of hidden disatisfaction with the fatiguing system. The more u think that the least fatiguing system is the most impressive sound, the least S/N, the least THD, the less your chance to fully get rid of it.
I believe that many people think that sealed is better than vented is caused by difficulty in getting the vented right. Of course, for a given condition a sealed can be a better option than vented. But when the conditions cry for vented the challenge starts. The chance for success might be smaller with vented than sealed.
Same with active vs passive xo. Active will automatically bypass difficulties with 3-way passive design, which is much more difficult than 2-way design.
For me, opamp based system is fatiguing, not the kind of fatigue that make me run away, but that make me bored, lose the enjoyment of listening to music all day.
My reference passive 3-way is unique as it is against best practice. I use vented for the midwoofer and of course vented also for the woofer. Crossover is relatively complex, no "simple is good".
Generally there isn't an equivalent between sealed and bass-reflex for a given driver.
A driver with an appropriate Qts that might be used in either design would usually be almost double the volume for a typical bass-reflex when compared to sealed system.
In a bass-reflex design impedance is altered, and not just with respect to secondary peak below the port's tuning freq.. Each impedance "peak" usually has a lower "Q" with a broader or "widening" of the base of each "peak". If the two peaks are close together the "saddle" portion of the impedance trace (or that portion between the two "peaks") is often elevated.
As you've noted this typically presents an easier load, BUT this is under a very basic test condition with particularly limited excursion.
Under normal operation with low freq. transients the driver starts to undergo a bit more excursion than normal, and impedance then *drops* to a lower level - essentially requiring a "spike" in current to attempt to maintain the voltage. Then factor-in phase angle, which is also changing under this condition.
..and yes, considering it's now 1 AM for me - apparently I've lost at least some sleep.
Funny you should mention active Jay. I mix active with a bit of passive and compensation ckts to get it right. Sure three way passive is difficult, but always start with the passive to see how it works out and then if I can do with active go that route. Saves cash in a hurry, especially if there are any additional changes that need to be made.
Don't understand smaller chance of success with BR tho. Totally eludes me. Suppose most can't make proper is what you are saying or possibly put them in the WRONG place when setup? The later I see happening all the time.
As for opamps, yes some just blow chunks, but other well designed do quite well IMHO. Can see where LO is coming from with the class AB and stacked up output transistors tho.
Sound (noise) at any real level say above the level of what is distracting is fatiguing. I have been in far to many factories where the ambient noise level will cause a headache, the same as noise masking the source, or a kid crying and or whining while trying to talk is the same. Then we also have levels above 75dB that will cause fatigue if prolonged. For my son as an example is set to ~70-75dB and runs all day. Don't want todo any damage to his ears. Levels in excess of 85dB will cause hearing damage if heard for 8 hour days 5 day work weeks (OSHA mandates this limit). And then we have levels above this which can cause short term damage quite quickly. Like the day after a concert, not a good time to tweak you system for sure. Same as driving over to a HiEnd shop for a listen to the latest Hoo Ha with the windows rolled down, forget about it, your too deaf. Noise in general riding on the back of a stereo signal can cause fatigue, toss in some distortion, poor crossover, ganked phase and a badly behavin amp et al can cause fatigue. But if I were to choose the one thing that does the most is phase and breakup in the 500-5k range, seems to be the worst.
If I may suggest, shouldn't we have a poll with various conditions to be voted on would help us pin down what bothers us most? Tho I can see how that would be skewed by those whom think something is yet another.
Just a thought
Don't understand smaller chance of success with BR tho. Totally eludes me. Suppose most can't make proper is what you are saying or possibly put them in the WRONG place when setup? The later I see happening all the time.
As for opamps, yes some just blow chunks, but other well designed do quite well IMHO. Can see where LO is coming from with the class AB and stacked up output transistors tho.
Sound (noise) at any real level say above the level of what is distracting is fatiguing. I have been in far to many factories where the ambient noise level will cause a headache, the same as noise masking the source, or a kid crying and or whining while trying to talk is the same. Then we also have levels above 75dB that will cause fatigue if prolonged. For my son as an example is set to ~70-75dB and runs all day. Don't want todo any damage to his ears. Levels in excess of 85dB will cause hearing damage if heard for 8 hour days 5 day work weeks (OSHA mandates this limit). And then we have levels above this which can cause short term damage quite quickly. Like the day after a concert, not a good time to tweak you system for sure. Same as driving over to a HiEnd shop for a listen to the latest Hoo Ha with the windows rolled down, forget about it, your too deaf. Noise in general riding on the back of a stereo signal can cause fatigue, toss in some distortion, poor crossover, ganked phase and a badly behavin amp et al can cause fatigue. But if I were to choose the one thing that does the most is phase and breakup in the 500-5k range, seems to be the worst.
If I may suggest, shouldn't we have a poll with various conditions to be voted on would help us pin down what bothers us most? Tho I can see how that would be skewed by those whom think something is yet another.
Just a thought
Greebster, ofcourse but there are more things than noise. The jfet is noisy but it has different sound than bjt. For large signal processing, 071 is not so noisy.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.