the same fun, again...
Having had both MicroSeiki RX-1500 +SME+MS-arms, and Oracle Delphi MkIII + SME-V (overrated arm btw), + some lesser tt's, I have learned to hate belt-drives.
MicroSeiki had one good thing; solid mass / stiff suspension. (And a bearing to die for).
None had precice motors.
My SP-10 & SP-15 does
@ rdr: tweak; try to make armbord from different materials, my is made of solid wood, and thicker than std.
Arne K
Having had both MicroSeiki RX-1500 +SME+MS-arms, and Oracle Delphi MkIII + SME-V (overrated arm btw), + some lesser tt's, I have learned to hate belt-drives.
MicroSeiki had one good thing; solid mass / stiff suspension. (And a bearing to die for).
None had precice motors.
My SP-10 & SP-15 does
@ rdr: tweak; try to make armbord from different materials, my is made of solid wood, and thicker than std.
Arne K
Hey Cobra,
Pray tell, why? I would really like to know. You have clearly owned some very highly regarded TT's, and I'm not dismissing you out of hand, but "hate" is a pretty strong statement about a format that has received a lot of acclaim from a lot of reputable circles. I have had a few "decent" DD tables, and though I ultimately decided that belt drive was the only way to completely eliminate motor noise, I still hold the MicroSeiki's in high regard.
Not trying to pick a fight, I sincerly would like to know what experience(s) you've had to sour you so completely on belts.
Regards,
Casey
Pray tell, why? I would really like to know. You have clearly owned some very highly regarded TT's, and I'm not dismissing you out of hand, but "hate" is a pretty strong statement about a format that has received a lot of acclaim from a lot of reputable circles. I have had a few "decent" DD tables, and though I ultimately decided that belt drive was the only way to completely eliminate motor noise, I still hold the MicroSeiki's in high regard.
Not trying to pick a fight, I sincerly would like to know what experience(s) you've had to sour you so completely on belts.
Regards,
Casey
easy...
I sometimes leave my tt standing for a couple of months...and when I suddenly got the urge to play vinyl, that damn belt was slack...
atually, it has more to do with the construction in total; many of them "great" tt's still use a AC motor. Did you ever hold around one running? Would do better use in some plastic-covered stick for females.
And those tt's I have ovned with DC-motors, have had lousy electronic control. Maybe a RX-1500 with a Teres motor would be a better combo?
Arne K
I sometimes leave my tt standing for a couple of months...and when I suddenly got the urge to play vinyl, that damn belt was slack...
atually, it has more to do with the construction in total; many of them "great" tt's still use a AC motor. Did you ever hold around one running? Would do better use in some plastic-covered stick for females.And those tt's I have ovned with DC-motors, have had lousy electronic control. Maybe a RX-1500 with a Teres motor would be a better combo?
Arne K
Hey Arne-
Ya, that would torque me off too...the better tables have moved away from rubber.
Why yes I have
-Casey
Ya, that would torque me off too...the better tables have moved away from rubber.
Why yes I have
-Casey
Cobra2 -
My base/arm board is a solid 3/4" acrylic. It is quite heavy and non-resonant. I would consider something even heavier/thicker, like table top Corian (I have a piece) but I'm not sure of a benefit and the clear plastic looks great with polished edges and I can see stuff under it.
I am rewiring my interconnects and grounds now. I am looking forward to all the new tweaking I will have to do now!
My base/arm board is a solid 3/4" acrylic. It is quite heavy and non-resonant. I would consider something even heavier/thicker, like table top Corian (I have a piece) but I'm not sure of a benefit and the clear plastic looks great with polished edges and I can see stuff under it.
I am rewiring my interconnects and grounds now. I am looking forward to all the new tweaking I will have to do now!
Guys,
it's nice to see the vinyl frontier adding up! But I couldn't disagree more on some of the more repeated myths around, in particular:
- belt drive is superior
It is darn hard to beat a well running SP10 or SP15 in a decent housing. Any TD150, and yes, a TD125 as well will not match this performance unless you searching for that specific (comparably fluffy) spring-belt sound +or+ you're heading for a mass approach with fancy motor & controller. Yes, I've heard a few. *Never* sell a SP10 (except to me, of course
)
-SME3012 is a good tonearm. It is not. At least not for the price you have to pay for it since two or three years. It simply doesn't reach the performance of a decent arm. Yes, it will bury any rega (haven't heard a rb900, though) and looks cool, but that's all.
-the teres-style decks are the end of your search. They don't make some of the more annoying mistakes of a springy belt-drive, have correct tonality (I don't know if that word fits), much less nerving noises but tend to sound dead.
rdr, please do one of the following:
- keep your SP15, or, rather,
- sell it to me
Sorry to sound a bit discouraging, but fluffy belt-driven spring boards are not the latest word in vinyl reproduction!
Rüdiger
it's nice to see the vinyl frontier adding up! But I couldn't disagree more on some of the more repeated myths around, in particular:
- belt drive is superior
It is darn hard to beat a well running SP10 or SP15 in a decent housing. Any TD150, and yes, a TD125 as well will not match this performance unless you searching for that specific (comparably fluffy) spring-belt sound +or+ you're heading for a mass approach with fancy motor & controller. Yes, I've heard a few. *Never* sell a SP10 (except to me, of course
)-SME3012 is a good tonearm. It is not. At least not for the price you have to pay for it since two or three years. It simply doesn't reach the performance of a decent arm. Yes, it will bury any rega (haven't heard a rb900, though) and looks cool, but that's all.
-the teres-style decks are the end of your search. They don't make some of the more annoying mistakes of a springy belt-drive, have correct tonality (I don't know if that word fits), much less nerving noises but tend to sound dead.
rdr, please do one of the following:
- keep your SP15, or, rather,
- sell it to me
Sorry to sound a bit discouraging, but fluffy belt-driven spring boards are not the latest word in vinyl reproduction!
Rüdiger
just to add little oil on fire.................
for me (and that truth must be absolute! hehe) that's more matter of class,not idler-DD-belt story........
I'm happy camper with several twisters as EMT930,G401,L75 and L78.......but also I have in the past few Thorens decks,as 318blabla ,technics 1400 etc.........
after heavy tweaking 1400 was miles ahead of 318 and cousins......
but -regarding belt drive- Stabi was in another league,stock good as 1400 tweaked....
anyway- good 'table is good.......cheap one can be good but only if you have a brain and mucho time....
as you can probably guess-my passion is in idlers....but- when rdr decide to send that crappy Technics for proper disposal,I'll dispose it with passion,too......
for me (and that truth must be absolute! hehe) that's more matter of class,not idler-DD-belt story........
I'm happy camper with several twisters as EMT930,G401,L75 and L78.......but also I have in the past few Thorens decks,as 318blabla ,technics 1400 etc.........
after heavy tweaking 1400 was miles ahead of 318 and cousins......
but -regarding belt drive- Stabi was in another league,stock good as 1400 tweaked....
anyway- good 'table is good.......cheap one can be good but only if you have a brain and mucho time....
as you can probably guess-my passion is in idlers....but- when rdr decide to send that crappy Technics for proper disposal,I'll dispose it with passion,too......
I hear no motor noise or flutter or bass feedback with my SP-15. Are there any other specs of importance? I feel the weak link -BY FAR- is the cartridge, and that is where the money should go. Not thousands for a turntable. In my previous vinyl life I did experiment with a few cartridges (Ortofon, Neuman, Shure, EMT, Denon, etc.) and found substantial differences. My favorite back then was the EMT, but alas it was on loan. I can conceive of some improvement with a different arm, but the SEME is tracking well and I don't have many warped records. I never heard a difference in the several turntables I had (Thorens, Reco-Cut, AR, etc.) In my reincarnation as a vinyl person I still don't think I will.
As I said, I am looking into a MC cartridge, probably a Denon, but I need to get the head amp or transformer settled. The Shure seems a little thin in the lower bass. Or is that my arm or turntable?
As I said, I am looking into a MC cartridge, probably a Denon, but I need to get the head amp or transformer settled. The Shure seems a little thin in the lower bass. Or is that my arm or turntable?
I found that the goldring 1042 has a better bass reproduction than the shure, a V15VxMR.
As to the rest - you will not find favour with your opinions - that I share - with the vinyl kids.
A turntable has to only that - have low rumble through a good sparation between motor and platter (or a noiseless direct drive), minimum bearing noise and the least amount of resonance from room noise and be impervious to footfall - a matter of how to rack it, and keep stable speed.
There is nothing else a drive is responsible for. I do not know where those notions of soggy bass through suspension drives comes from - maby soggy sock when listening?
The tonearm/cartridge combination is in my experience far more important, and if someone is willing to spend thousands$ on a tonearm - go ahead, I am happy with my combination of denon/sme - and do not try to convince me that spending double the amount will double the quality of soundreproduction - maybe in your fantasy, to justify the expense...like expensive cabling etc.
I am into that game since I was 16 - over fourty years now - and I've just about heard all the crap I am willing to listen to.
Guys-
I sure hope rdr’s exclamation of joy over re-discovering vinyl doesn’t turn into a mud fight.
rdr-
I could not agree more. With a few minor tweek’s, I would suspect your table would hold it’s own with the competition. I agree that the Denon is a good way to go, for a quick/cheap fix until you find your step-ups, or pre-pre, I would suggest you consider a Grado Black. At 40 bucks it won’t put you in the poor house, and if you don’t think it mops the floor with the Shure, I will buy it from you..really. I need to pick one up anyway as a “beater” while I develop my arm.
How the turntable achieves a noise free stable rotation is of little consequence…as long as it does. I could care if it’s DD, belt, idler or a hamster wheel. Each camp has it’s list of compromises. I have lived with a decent DD, the Kenwood KD-500, It sounded very good, in fact it was my standard while I worked out modding a vintage AR suspension table. Ultimately, it was agreed among my room mates (this was 25 years ago) that the AR surpassed the Kenwood, but, there were tradeoffs (there always are). The Kenwood had more authority and extension in the deep bass. Was this because it was DD..no. It was attributable to the massive faux marble base, and the heavier platter. The AR beat it everywhere else. Was this due to the belt drive..no. It was attributable to the tunable suspension that allowed tweeking the resonance to synergy with the arm and cart, and the better arm.
I believe the commercial belt drives eclipsed the DD’s because they were so easy to develop. Think about it..coming up with a platter out of different material to try for a belt drive is quick and inexpensive, very much not so for the DD’s. That, and as the bearing/motor/platter are all integral , the designer is limited to his bearing choices. Later, when the “Ultra-Fi” started by the Teres kicked off..same deal. Designing, and building, a monster DD motor/platter combo is way beyond your typical craftsman.
It’s not that it’s belt drive, it’s that belt drives have continued to evolve.
-Casey
I sure hope rdr’s exclamation of joy over re-discovering vinyl doesn’t turn into a mud fight.
rdr-
I could not agree more. With a few minor tweek’s, I would suspect your table would hold it’s own with the competition. I agree that the Denon is a good way to go, for a quick/cheap fix until you find your step-ups, or pre-pre, I would suggest you consider a Grado Black. At 40 bucks it won’t put you in the poor house, and if you don’t think it mops the floor with the Shure, I will buy it from you..really. I need to pick one up anyway as a “beater” while I develop my arm.
How the turntable achieves a noise free stable rotation is of little consequence…as long as it does. I could care if it’s DD, belt, idler or a hamster wheel. Each camp has it’s list of compromises. I have lived with a decent DD, the Kenwood KD-500, It sounded very good, in fact it was my standard while I worked out modding a vintage AR suspension table. Ultimately, it was agreed among my room mates (this was 25 years ago) that the AR surpassed the Kenwood, but, there were tradeoffs (there always are). The Kenwood had more authority and extension in the deep bass. Was this because it was DD..no. It was attributable to the massive faux marble base, and the heavier platter. The AR beat it everywhere else. Was this due to the belt drive..no. It was attributable to the tunable suspension that allowed tweeking the resonance to synergy with the arm and cart, and the better arm.
I believe the commercial belt drives eclipsed the DD’s because they were so easy to develop. Think about it..coming up with a platter out of different material to try for a belt drive is quick and inexpensive, very much not so for the DD’s. That, and as the bearing/motor/platter are all integral , the designer is limited to his bearing choices. Later, when the “Ultra-Fi” started by the Teres kicked off..same deal. Designing, and building, a monster DD motor/platter combo is way beyond your typical craftsman.
It’s not that it’s belt drive, it’s that belt drives have continued to evolve.
-Casey
Hi,
Zen Mod is of course right in saying that quality of design and build has the main impact. And that is why AR-ish record decks sound reasonably good, but aren't the latest word! (and never weren't)
The last years showed, that the quality of the deck (motor, bearing, transmission, plinth) is of much more importance than the folks thought in the old days of vinyl playback, when arm/cart combinations stood in the foreground.
By 'myth' I'm referring to the boring repetitions like 'My TD150 outperforms so many today's high-end decks...'
That is simply not true! We all see those hypes come and go, and that one is on a high tide now!
And it is not a fair thing to tell rdr to get rid of his current rig, becaue it is not the limiting factor (as long as it works good, of course). Experimenting with different plinths may be a valid starting point to tweak the setup, if at all necessary.
With the given arm, some of those tweaked DL103's can sound very good here, but if you like the shure, you probably don't like the denon.
Sorry for mudding in again,
Rüdiger
Zen Mod is of course right in saying that quality of design and build has the main impact. And that is why AR-ish record decks sound reasonably good, but aren't the latest word! (and never weren't)
The last years showed, that the quality of the deck (motor, bearing, transmission, plinth) is of much more importance than the folks thought in the old days of vinyl playback, when arm/cart combinations stood in the foreground.
By 'myth' I'm referring to the boring repetitions like 'My TD150 outperforms so many today's high-end decks...'
That is simply not true! We all see those hypes come and go, and that one is on a high tide now!
And it is not a fair thing to tell rdr to get rid of his current rig, becaue it is not the limiting factor (as long as it works good, of course). Experimenting with different plinths may be a valid starting point to tweak the setup, if at all necessary.
With the given arm, some of those tweaked DL103's can sound very good here, but if you like the shure, you probably don't like the denon.
Sorry for mudding in again,
Rüdiger
I am not trying to start a turn table fight here. Like many others here, I have been around for a while and have seen many fads and money sucking obsessions come and go. For a while I have been victimized by them myself (the superiority of digital, for one). But I will not hesitate to comment when I see one.
Valveitude-
Thanks for the links. I was looking for such and will get those.
While I'm at it, since your nick indicates tube knowledge, I have a question. I ordered some Sovtec 12AX7LPS tubes from Parts Express for my Dyna Pre-amp and they are NOISY! I am returning them. Any experience with this? I should probably post on the tube forum. But then I'll risk starting a fight over transistors vs tubes! (I have both, and still have two Citation II's)
Valveitude-
Thanks for the links. I was looking for such and will get those.
While I'm at it, since your nick indicates tube knowledge, I have a question. I ordered some Sovtec 12AX7LPS tubes from Parts Express for my Dyna Pre-amp and they are NOISY! I am returning them. Any experience with this? I should probably post on the tube forum. But then I'll risk starting a fight over transistors vs tubes! (I have both, and still have two Citation II's)
rdr-
Glad I could help..I was dead serious about the "risk free trial" with the Grado. I will be getting one anyway, and I would have no problem buying yours if you don't like it.
More of a desire for, rather than a possesion of.
I can't recall which is which, but Sovtek has some 'AX7's that rival Telefunkin's, as well as others that stink up the place. The tube forum has a great many VERY knowledgeable people on it, and I know they can steer you the right way. And yes, there are tube bigots, as well as pragmatists living there. These forums have a great many knowledgable people, with a great many opinions. Disagreement's as how to reach audio bliss abound..take what you want, and leave the rest.
I for one support your right to foul up the signal path with sand based amplification devices
-Casey
Glad I could help..I was dead serious about the "risk free trial" with the Grado. I will be getting one anyway, and I would have no problem buying yours if you don't like it.
More of a desire for, rather than a possesion of.
I can't recall which is which, but Sovtek has some 'AX7's that rival Telefunkin's, as well as others that stink up the place. The tube forum has a great many VERY knowledgeable people on it, and I know they can steer you the right way. And yes, there are tube bigots, as well as pragmatists living there. These forums have a great many knowledgable people, with a great many opinions. Disagreement's as how to reach audio bliss abound..take what you want, and leave the rest.
I for one support your right to foul up the signal path with sand based amplification devices
-Casey
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