Hi Gertjan,
Thanks for all your nice words. Indeed we will have to improve the text for the ON input. For us this is clear, but for the customers it must also be clear.
Glad you like the sound of the UcD so far. One of the nice aspect of the NE5532 is the noise level, this is indeed quit low. Ofcourse there are better op amps but for the price it is a very good performer. It is not a problem to use a more costly device, but I like to keep the price resonably. Perhaps in future we will have different options for the input op amp.
To compare different amplifiers it is better to keep it passive, a more way active setup is far more complexer. It is now only switching between the different amplifiers. Indeed in your active setup you will have a higher definition. But when you hear now difference this will be even bigger in the higher definition setup
A small suggestion;
When you make a more way active loudspeaker setup I would strongly advise you to use always the same amplifier for every channel. You inform us to use the ZAPpulse in your active setup for the bassloudspeaker.
But in your reply you tell us "seems also to have faster better controlled bass". In this case I would also use the UcD180 for the bass......
Wait for more sound tests
Best regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
Thanks for all your nice words. Indeed we will have to improve the text for the ON input. For us this is clear, but for the customers it must also be clear.
Glad you like the sound of the UcD so far. One of the nice aspect of the NE5532 is the noise level, this is indeed quit low. Ofcourse there are better op amps but for the price it is a very good performer. It is not a problem to use a more costly device, but I like to keep the price resonably. Perhaps in future we will have different options for the input op amp.
To compare different amplifiers it is better to keep it passive, a more way active setup is far more complexer. It is now only switching between the different amplifiers. Indeed in your active setup you will have a higher definition. But when you hear now difference this will be even bigger in the higher definition setup
A small suggestion;
When you make a more way active loudspeaker setup I would strongly advise you to use always the same amplifier for every channel. You inform us to use the ZAPpulse in your active setup for the bassloudspeaker.
But in your reply you tell us "seems also to have faster better controlled bass". In this case I would also use the UcD180 for the bass......
Wait for more sound tests
Best regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
ne5532
Hi
In their last gear ( C46 preamp , MDA1000 DAC ) , MCIntosh uses systematically Philips NE5532
NE5532 has not only good noise performance , it has a very good distorsion spectrum too
http://fnt-www.ss.titech.ac.jp/~hajime/uec/distortion/opa.html
Alain
Hi
In their last gear ( C46 preamp , MDA1000 DAC ) , MCIntosh uses systematically Philips NE5532
NE5532 has not only good noise performance , it has a very good distorsion spectrum too
http://fnt-www.ss.titech.ac.jp/~hajime/uec/distortion/opa.html
Alain
Jan-Peter said:Hi Gertjan,
Thanks for all your nice words. Indeed we will have to improve the text for the ON input. For us this is clear, but for the customers it must also be clear.
Glad you like the sound of the UcD so far. One of the nice aspect of the NE5532 is the noise level, this is indeed quit low. Ofcourse there are better op amps but for the price it is a very good performer. It is not a problem to use a more costly device, but I like to keep the price resonably. Perhaps in future we will have different options for the input op amp.
To compare different amplifiers it is better to keep it passive, a more way active setup is far more complexer. It is now only switching between the different amplifiers. Indeed in your active setup you will have a higher definition. But when you hear now difference this will be even bigger in the higher definition setup
A small suggestion;
When you make a more way active loudspeaker setup I would strongly advise you to use always the same amplifier for every channel. You inform us to use the ZAPpulse in your active setup for the bassloudspeaker.
But in your reply you tell us "seems also to have faster better controlled bass". In this case I would also use the UcD180 for the bass......
Wait for more sound tests
Best regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
I know it is tought to test with different amps in an active system. What I think is the best way is to listen for a week or so to a few CDs with a certain setup. Then switch to another setup and listen again for some time to the same CDs. Switching back and forth in one listening session is a disaster with so many amps. I think it is better to get used to the sound of one setup for sometime and then switch to another setup.
About my woofers, these are dipole woofers running below 120Hz. So I think the differences between ZAppulse and UCD are probably not that big in that frequency range. My statement about better controlled bass is also something I obserced for the other class D amps. ANother reason for wanting to use the ZAPpulse is that I bought 4 of them and they are quite expensive in comparison with the UCD`s. Another good reason is that they can be bridged and can handle very low impedance loads as their output coil can handle a lot of power. I need bridged operation since the dipoles need a lot of power at low frequencies. When used in non-bridged mode I get my amps clipping (both ZAPpulse and Accuphase). I checked the movements of the cones, was not tthat bad so I don`t think the woofers were bottoming. Also ZAPpulse and Accuphase seem to clip at a slightly different power level which also indicates clipping and not bottoming of the woofers. So I need quite massive power for the woofers. The UCD400 maybe able to deliver that, but my Accuphase also delivers 200W at 8Ohm so I think one UCD400 for a woofer would not be enough. Bridging two of them for one woofer could be a solution to get more power. However, with two ZAPPulses I can bridge two woofers in parallel (4Ohm load, so 2Ohm per module). In that case, the ZAPpulse would be a cheaper solution, and I already have them, would be a waiste not to use them. I may want to try to compare the ZAPpulse with the ucd 180 some time on the passive system, but really the active system is better to hear the differences.
Best regards
Gertjan
Re: ne5532
Hello Alain,
The NE5532 does not look bad, so highest priority should probably be the caps. The active digital crossover/speaker correction system that I use seems to use OP2134 opamps, so a logical choise maybe to use the same opamp in the UCD180.
Best regards
Gertjan
rha61 said:
Hello Alain,
The NE5532 does not look bad, so highest priority should probably be the caps. The active digital crossover/speaker correction system that I use seems to use OP2134 opamps, so a logical choise maybe to use the same opamp in the UCD180.
Best regards
Gertjan
Hi Jan Peter
Why are you asking ME in particular ? Am I the only one with the blue version ?
Yes they look indeed nice but no one will see it in the final application unfortunately.
I have another question: What make and type of connector are you using for the inputs on the UcD ? I'd really like to use it as connector and not as soldering posts. But I don't like to search around too much when someone already has the answer.
This would maybe an idea for an orderable option and also worth a remark on the data-sheet BTW.
I am still in the process of soldering, crimping and drilling. I want to test them together with a new crossover topology. Thats why I haven't fired them up yet. But I am definitely looking forward to listen to them.
Why not use a nicer one (like polypropylene) in parallel and leave the other one in its current place ?
Regards
Charles
phase_accurate said:
Hi Jan Peter
Why are you asking ME in particular ? Am I the only one with the blue version ?
Yes they look indeed nice but no one will see it in the final application unfortunately.
I have another question: What make and type of connector are you using for the inputs on the UcD ? I'd really like to use it as connector and not as soldering posts. But I don't like to search around too much when someone already has the answer.
This would maybe an idea for an orderable option and also worth a remark on the data-sheet BTW.
I am still in the process of soldering, crimping and drilling. I want to test them together with a new crossover topology. Thats why I haven't fired them up yet. But I am definitely looking forward to listen to them.
Why not use a nicer one (like polypropylene) in parallel and leave the other one in its current place ?
Regards
Charles
Hi Charles,
These caps are electrolytic caps. These caps seem to have a + and - connection. Normally, those caps should have positive voltages on the + connection. Giving them to deal with an AC voltage, should not be the ideal condition. I have not measured anything on the module. It could be that the inputs of the UCD module are negatively biased so that the caps most of the time (or always) see positive voltages on their + connection.
Anyway, for the amps for the tweeter and midrange, these caps do not need to be 22uF, can be much smaller, so I plan to remove them for the tweeter and mids and replace them with Polypropylene. Then I`m sure they can`t do any harm. To be honest, at this moment I don`t know whether they do any harm. I will try it in the future.
Best regards
Gertjan
Hi Charles,
I don't specially mean you, but you called mine small modules "quit sexy". So I was wondering how it is in real life
The connector we use is a copy of the Molex KK series, 2.54mm pinning. Indeed a good idee to offer several sets of different type of cables. We are currently developing a website where these modules can be orderd.
I am not an expert in how different electronic components do sound. For this we better wait till Bruno is back from his vacation. If you are shure about your filters/preamp having no DC I would simply remove the cap's and listen to a small piece of copper wire
In a way no cap is not such a problem, however a small DC input wll create a small plop in your loudspeaker. It is increadible how less DC voltage will create a hearible plop!
Regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
I don't specially mean you, but you called mine small modules "quit sexy". So I was wondering how it is in real life
The connector we use is a copy of the Molex KK series, 2.54mm pinning. Indeed a good idee to offer several sets of different type of cables. We are currently developing a website where these modules can be orderd.
I am not an expert in how different electronic components do sound. For this we better wait till Bruno is back from his vacation. If you are shure about your filters/preamp having no DC I would simply remove the cap's and listen to a small piece of copper wire
In a way no cap is not such a problem, however a small DC input wll create a small plop in your loudspeaker. It is increadible how less DC voltage will create a hearible plop!
Regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
Indeed, that's what I said.
But according to the info what I have from Philips is with a good subsonic filter (15-20Hz), and enough electrolityc capacitors in the powersupply (10.000uF) will save you for the pumping effect.
With the now used 22uF caps, the -3dB low frequency point is around 4Hz.
The main reason for this two caps is only to avoid DC at the output to the louspeaker.
I guess the best is first to get some soundexperience with this modules and after that start to thinking about tweaks.
A good chance these modules do sound much different as other amplifiers
Regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
But according to the info what I have from Philips is with a good subsonic filter (15-20Hz), and enough electrolityc capacitors in the powersupply (10.000uF) will save you for the pumping effect.
With the now used 22uF caps, the -3dB low frequency point is around 4Hz.
The main reason for this two caps is only to avoid DC at the output to the louspeaker.
I guess the best is first to get some soundexperience with this modules and after that start to thinking about tweaks.
A good chance these modules do sound much different as other amplifiers
Regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
Jan-Peter said:Hi Charles,
I don't specially mean you, but you called mine small modules "quit sexy". So I was wondering how it is in real life
The connector we use is a copy of the Molex KK series, 2.54mm pinning. Indeed a good idee to offer several sets of different type of cables. We are currently developing a website where these modules can be orderd.
I am not an expert in how different electronic components do sound. For this we better wait till Bruno is back from his vacation. If you are shure about your filters/preamp having no DC I would simply remove the cap's and listen to a small piece of copper wire
In a way no cap is not such a problem, however a small DC input wll create a small plop in your loudspeaker. It is increadible how less DC voltage will create a hearible plop!
Regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
Hi Jan-Peter,
I will give it a try (with a straight wire) once I have my updated DEQX PDC with XLR outputs. I`m also thinking of moving the caps before the opamps. They can then be smaller because of the higher input impedance. Removing the caps between opamps and UCD module itself may give a bit more output offset voltage as the offset voltages of the opamps would be amplified by the UCD. I`ll do some checks with a voltmeter to see what output offset DC I`m getting with and without caps.
Best regards
Gertjan
Hi,
What do people do when they are on holidays (Slovakia) and find a computer on their way? Check their mail... Goodness I must be becoming a communication addict.
I read through this thread and just like to add a few tidbits.
Pumping is dangerous only when it's constantly going one way. If you are amplifying a 10Hz signal, the power rails alternately pump, but the whole process doesn't run away. The 10000uF storage caps suggested by JP are moooore than sufficient even in an extreme case such as 10Hz. If only the audio signal were at issue, no AC coupling or pumping protection would be necessary.
It does become a problem when the output is DC because then one rail keeps going and going. Most audio sources are DC-free but some aren't. The last one I've had trouble with was a tube preamp with paper/oil output caps. Once more than about 200mV develops on the speaker output - zingo.
This is why it was decided to put coupling caps in the UcD180 modules. Newer versions will include the overvoltage protection so the user can safely experiment with removing the caps. With this protection present, the worst thing that can happen is that the amp periodically shuts down. Sonically it's always worthwhile to substitute the voltage protection for a coupling cap. I can assure you that a short sounds better than even a black gate cap.
On the 2134: It's a nice little amp with excellent price/performance, but it's not totally neutral. In its own way the 5532 is more neutral but less transparent. The result is that you can afford to have quite a lot of 5532s in the signal path before colouration becomes obvious.
Some audio engineers (not to name people like D. Self) use this fact to claim that the 5532 is "the perfect opamp" and that adherents of other chips are whiners. Such notions go a bit far for me though... I'm still stuck on my own discrete op amps (or did you think I only made class D amps out of discrete transistors).
If you have several active stages and you want to avoid the loss of transparency that goes with the 5532, I would suggest keeping several types of pin-compatible op-amps at hand and making a healthy mix. A similar story goes for capacitors btw.
On a lighter note: I once suggested to JP that he also use blue circuit boards (=blue solder resist) for consistency. Do you think I should pressure him?
What do people do when they are on holidays (Slovakia) and find a computer on their way? Check their mail... Goodness I must be becoming a communication addict.
I read through this thread and just like to add a few tidbits.
Pumping is dangerous only when it's constantly going one way. If you are amplifying a 10Hz signal, the power rails alternately pump, but the whole process doesn't run away. The 10000uF storage caps suggested by JP are moooore than sufficient even in an extreme case such as 10Hz. If only the audio signal were at issue, no AC coupling or pumping protection would be necessary.
It does become a problem when the output is DC because then one rail keeps going and going. Most audio sources are DC-free but some aren't. The last one I've had trouble with was a tube preamp with paper/oil output caps. Once more than about 200mV develops on the speaker output - zingo.
This is why it was decided to put coupling caps in the UcD180 modules. Newer versions will include the overvoltage protection so the user can safely experiment with removing the caps. With this protection present, the worst thing that can happen is that the amp periodically shuts down. Sonically it's always worthwhile to substitute the voltage protection for a coupling cap. I can assure you that a short sounds better than even a black gate cap.
On the 2134: It's a nice little amp with excellent price/performance, but it's not totally neutral. In its own way the 5532 is more neutral but less transparent. The result is that you can afford to have quite a lot of 5532s in the signal path before colouration becomes obvious.
Some audio engineers (not to name people like D. Self) use this fact to claim that the 5532 is "the perfect opamp" and that adherents of other chips are whiners. Such notions go a bit far for me though... I'm still stuck on my own discrete op amps (or did you think I only made class D amps out of discrete transistors).
If you have several active stages and you want to avoid the loss of transparency that goes with the 5532, I would suggest keeping several types of pin-compatible op-amps at hand and making a healthy mix. A similar story goes for capacitors btw.
On a lighter note: I once suggested to JP that he also use blue circuit boards (=blue solder resist) for consistency. Do you think I should pressure him?
Hello,
I promised a schematic for an overvoltage protection. Please look to attachment. This design is only for DIY, not for manufactures. Copyrights are by Hypex Electronics BV.
Regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
I promised a schematic for an overvoltage protection. Please look to attachment. This design is only for DIY, not for manufactures. Copyrights are by Hypex Electronics BV.
Regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
Attachments
Hi,
Thanks for the overvoltage schemtic Jan. It's nice and simple.
You know I was thinking last night about the blue this and the anodized that.. I'm sure it looks good, and I'm sure the cost of which is past on to the consumer. I'm all for the highest of quality, but i'm against added cost for mere cosmetics which add nothing to quality. Once it's inside a box no one will ever know there's a nice blue heatsink or what color the solder mesh is..
The lower priced you're able to keep your modules the more people will be able buy them, and I've very little doubt the performance of this module can speak for itself.
Anyway, Just a thought I had.
Thanks again for the protection circuit.
Regards,
Chris
Thanks for the overvoltage schemtic Jan. It's nice and simple.
You know I was thinking last night about the blue this and the anodized that.. I'm sure it looks good, and I'm sure the cost of which is past on to the consumer. I'm all for the highest of quality, but i'm against added cost for mere cosmetics which add nothing to quality. Once it's inside a box no one will ever know there's a nice blue heatsink or what color the solder mesh is..
The lower priced you're able to keep your modules the more people will be able buy them, and I've very little doubt the performance of this module can speak for itself.
Anyway, Just a thought I had.
Thanks again for the protection circuit.
Regards,
Chris
classd4sure said:
Hi Jan-Peter, Chris,
I agree with Chris, don`t need to spend money on the cosmetics. That money should better be spend on the components itself. I`ll see what I do with the overprotection circuit. I assume that I can remove the coupling caps and put coupling caps in front of the opamps or replace the coupling caps with smaller caps for tweeter and midrange use.
A question for Bruno, does this power supply pumping already occur for such low DC levels (few hundred mV) at the output?
Another way to get rid off the power supply pumping issue would be to use two modules bridged. However if it is true that a few hundred mV at the output can cause power supply pumping, then that would not be a guarantee to avoid it.
Best regards
Gertjan
Bruno Putzeys said:Hi,
What do people do when they are on holidays (Slovakia) and find a computer on their way? Check their mail... Goodness I must be becoming a communication addict.
I read through this thread and just like to add a few tidbits.
Pumping is dangerous only when it's constantly going one way. If you are amplifying a 10Hz signal, the power rails alternately pump, but the whole process doesn't run away. The 10000uF storage caps suggested by JP are moooore than sufficient even in an extreme case such as 10Hz. If only the audio signal were at issue, no AC coupling or pumping protection would be necessary.
It does become a problem when the output is DC because then one rail keeps going and going. Most audio sources are DC-free but some aren't. The last one I've had trouble with was a tube preamp with paper/oil output caps. Once more than about 200mV develops on the speaker output - zingo.
This is why it was decided to put coupling caps in the UcD180 modules. Newer versions will include the overvoltage protection so the user can safely experiment with removing the caps. With this protection present, the worst thing that can happen is that the amp periodically shuts down. Sonically it's always worthwhile to substitute the voltage protection for a coupling cap. I can assure you that a short sounds better than even a black gate cap.
On the 2134: It's a nice little amp with excellent price/performance, but it's not totally neutral. In its own way the 5532 is more neutral but less transparent. The result is that you can afford to have quite a lot of 5532s in the signal path before colouration becomes obvious.
Some audio engineers (not to name people like D. Self) use this fact to claim that the 5532 is "the perfect opamp" and that adherents of other chips are whiners. Such notions go a bit far for me though... I'm still stuck on my own discrete op amps (or did you think I only made class D amps out of discrete transistors).
If you have several active stages and you want to avoid the loss of transparency that goes with the 5532, I would suggest keeping several types of pin-compatible op-amps at hand and making a healthy mix. A similar story goes for capacitors btw.
On a lighter note: I once suggested to JP that he also use blue circuit boards (=blue solder resist) for consistency. Do you think I should pressure him?
Hi Bruno,
Thanks for your reply during your vacation. I will keep the NE5532 in for the time being. I will experiment with the caps first. Maybe remove them later completely, don`t know that yet.
I have up to know only tried the amps on my passive speakers. The active speakers have higher resolution and will therefore better suitable to reveal differences in amps and caps etc.
In the active setup I plan to compare the UCD modules with the Tripath based Marantz 4 channel amp. I assume the UCD wins
. Then I will later experiment with modding the UCD modules. Probably I`ll buy a couple more so that it is easier to compare modded and unmodded. Jan-Peter would have no objection against that experiment Best regards
Gertjan
Supply pumping: The lower the frequency, the lower the current needed to make it happen, so the least current is needed for DC output.
I once used some active circuit to compensate for the pumping. The circuit was in fact a simplified class-d amp that was "driving" a short at it's output. To say it in simple words: It worked quite well but I wouldn't bother to attempt something like that again.
As an alternative a charge pump could be implemeted quite easily that balances the power lines. Or some sort of synchronous rectifier could be used in the PSU.
About the blue colour:
I don't think that it makes the whole thing more expensive. I assume that Jan-Peter gets those in large quantities from a manufacturer and the latter doesn't mind what coluor is used for anodising.
BTW: Wait until the first one builds an amp with transparent cover !
Regards
Charles
I once used some active circuit to compensate for the pumping. The circuit was in fact a simplified class-d amp that was "driving" a short at it's output. To say it in simple words: It worked quite well but I wouldn't bother to attempt something like that again.
As an alternative a charge pump could be implemeted quite easily that balances the power lines. Or some sort of synchronous rectifier could be used in the PSU.
About the blue colour:
I don't think that it makes the whole thing more expensive. I assume that Jan-Peter gets those in large quantities from a manufacturer and the latter doesn't mind what coluor is used for anodising.
BTW: Wait until the first one builds an amp with transparent cover !
Regards
Charles
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