This may be the achilles heel.
If we want to hear a difference, we will:
I can't remember who it was that described this test, but it was supposed to be a comparison between two sets of speaker cable: some cheap no-brand stuff, and some rather expensive super high-end cable.
There were a few people listening. The guy conducting the test played some music, stopped it, unplugged the cheap speaker cables...
And then plugged them back in. The listeners could hear the plugging/unplugging, and knew they'd started with cheap ones (IIRC), but couldn't see which cables were now in use.
Suddenly the sound was (according to the panel) much-improved, with bigger dynamics and far more detail, deeper bass etc.
It was then revealed that the cables hadn't been switched at all.
They expected to hear a difference, and honestly believed they had. It was all in their heads - the unreliability of auditory memory is something else to be considered: perhaps you could try altering only one monitor, and then doing some ABX double blind testing?
No measurements, just see if the differences can be picked out by the majority.
Chris
Again, fair enough comment, but I went down that road a long, long time ago. Unlike most, I use the worst recordings to monitor improvements, essentially listening to the level and nature of the low level distortion audible, this sort of thing is a giveaway to the progress made.
Frank
I'm fine with that, if that suits the site. When I started I wasn't sure where to go, Pano mentioned it could be shifted elsewhere if that made more sense ...
Frank
So we're basically looking at a fairly standard linear power supply and two class AB chipamps with the active crossover implemented presumably around the TDAs working like power opamp.
This is purely conjecture and any distortion introduced via the power rails is already well understood. This isn't something you can fix either by beefing up the PSU, it can only be fixed by redesigning the PCB. Likewise if there is any crosstalk happening between the traces of the PCB, such as high power traces injecting crud into low level parts of the circuit, the only way to fix this is to redesign the PCB.
This is purely conjecture and any distortion introduced via the power rails is already well understood. This isn't something you can fix either by beefing up the PSU, it can only be fixed by redesigning the PCB. Likewise if there is any crosstalk happening between the traces of the PCB, such as high power traces injecting crud into low level parts of the circuit, the only way to fix this is to redesign the PCB.
Hi,
If that is the answer what is the question ? How to con yourself ?
Circular arguments that mean absolutely nothing to a seasoned audiophile.
rgds, sreten.
Behringer B2030A Truth
Hi,
Clearly built to a knockdown price and amenable to some mechanical
and electrical tweaking no doubt. The passive versions are about
£130 and add about £100 for the active versions.
However for a little bit more the 3030 with better
drivers would seem to be a better place to start IM0 :
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hi,
Clearly built to a knockdown price and amenable to some mechanical
and electrical tweaking no doubt. The passive versions are about
£130 and add about £100 for the active versions.
However for a little bit more the 3030 with better
drivers would seem to be a better place to start IM0 :
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Its one thing to try to improve a product you already own, its another to recommend to go out and buy something less than OK when surely it makes more sense to just build it right the first time with the same budget? (don't call me Shirley).
You're hobbled by the original design and will end up with a 'maybe' OK speaker of rubbish plastic & chipboard build with truly low budget drivers and cheap as they can be amps.
It doesn't matter how much you polish a turd - its still a turd (no matter what "attitude with which you approach getting better sound")
Please show us a few of your many improved speakers & amps from the last 25yrs....
You're hobbled by the original design and will end up with a 'maybe' OK speaker of rubbish plastic & chipboard build with truly low budget drivers and cheap as they can be amps.
It doesn't matter how much you polish a turd - its still a turd (no matter what "attitude with which you approach getting better sound")
Please show us a few of your many improved speakers & amps from the last 25yrs....
I was sure when I started reading a thread with nine pages there would eventually be some content at some point...
I feel there are a few thread OP's and posters out there who may be frustrated audio writers who haven't found employment and thus use these forums as outlets. Just say'n...
This is where I beg to differ. Since I got onto this lurk over 25 years ago of the approach of taking the circuitry, the components as is, determining where the Achilles Heels were, not at the "big" level, but rather in the subtle, seemingly minor areas it has always reaped benefits. Always. I've got a friend that I've been guiding for the last 2 years ago or so to use this approach, and the improvements have been dramatic. Before this, he had the usual mindset, the usual disease of upgradeitis. Now, he just keeps playing with what he's got, a little experiment here, a fine adjustment there. And the sound has gone from typical hifi, -- sometimes good, sometimes pretty ordinary -- to sounding spectacularly impressive at times, he runs it at very high volumes with complete ease, his wife is completely bowled over frequently with how good it sounds ...
Frank
This thread is more suited to a blog format. It may be moved there in the future. This forum does have a blog feature.
The thing of which I was talking about is easily measurable, easy to diagnose and 'easy' to fix, if you know what you're doing, but it isn't fixable, generally speaking, without redesigning the PCB.
If Behringer have done their job correctly the problem wont exist at all, but you will only know that it exists at all by measuring the system.
I am all for eliminating design issues but you need to know that they exist in the first place before you can figure out how to solve them. Simply assuming that the system is faulty to start with is the wrong way of going about it.
re:'the power supplies are pretty ridiculous', so how about a schematic to show us how you would improve them? I have a pair of 'no-name' computer monitors I got from Cash Converters, sound is reasonable but the power supply gets hot, & the on/off switch & vol control are inconveniently on the back.. thinking of adding a beefy stand alone power supply
Some years ago a chap who was in a band, and recording music, heard what I had going at the time, and asked if I could do such a beast, a new studio monitor, for him. I went through a very rough costing exercise, and quickly realised it was a no-go. Monitors, no matter the quality, are spat out at a ferocious rate, the value for money of standard gear is excellent - I couldn't compete ...
So, much, much better off grabbing a decently made off the shelf unit and doing it up. And the quality of the B2030A is very good, in the key areas. I've seen schematics of active monitors nearly 10 times the price, there are no magic differences: same chip amps, same active filter opamps, same smoothing cap sizes. Picking up this monitor feels like handling a ten pin bowling ball - drop it on your toes and the neighbourhood would know about it!
If truth be known, a very high percentage of most audio gear is filled with 'turd' parts, even the really expensive stuff - but you knew that - and this is not really relevant. I'm of the school that says an ordinary part used correctly is vastly more important than the fancy, gold plated variety sprinkled around hither and thither, from a pepper grinder.
As is obvious, I have zero interest in pic's of stuff, I have absolutely none of anything done to date - the only thing that matters is whether it works or not, delivers the sound quality I'm after.
Frank
The monitor is not "faulty", simply weak, lacking refinement. Weak, as in when you push the volume control the sound doesn't simply cleanly increase in dBs. What is usually called compression in consumer audio: in the monitor it's far more subtle but still there. But I listened to active studio monitors costing thousand of dollars, and they behave the same; it's generic to the type. This is all about power supply deficiencies.
Lacking refinement, meaning doesn't give high end sound: not as detailed as possible, low level recorded information missing, treble doesn't ring true, lacks "musicality". This is poor quality connections, switches and pots, and other bits and pieces of weaknesses
I've heard the same problems in myriads of systems, at all price levels, I know them by heart. I don't bother to attempt to measure by meter: I hear the weakness, I look at the usual suspects, roll my eyes and start applying fixes. Again, this has always worked, no reason to change my ways now ...
Frank
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