Thanks, Pano, and special thanks to bear for being very helpful.
Sorry to get cheesed off, the other forum behaved "badly", I was offlined in such a way that no-one knew what was going on -- I wasn't a happy camper ...
My problem is that my way of doing things, that is, upgrading audio gear, are controversial, for some people at least, and I'm sure I'll get the back up of at least some people here -- I can see that I will have at least one anti-muse
-- who'll insist that what I'm saying is nonsense: so be it ...Anyway, on with the story, <pithy mode on>
* An off the shelf active monitor, a Behringer (well caught, tnargs!), will be upgraded. Nothing yet has been done to the units.
* Most people see improving sound as a process of adding bits of quality to the gear: better drivers, better capacitors, better cables, etc, etc. My way is subtractive, rather than additive, I identify weaknesses in the equipment: poor connections, poor power supplies design, poor interference resistance, etc, and eliminate them. One by one. (lift from message to bear ...)
* This approach I find extremely cost effective, and, amazingly enough, reaps dividends on even the most nominally lowly born gear. (ditto ...)
* I'm an EE by qualification, but never entered the trade: job market was bad at the time, and I got sidelined into the computer industry instead, in the late '70s. Stayed there until I overcooked my brain some years ago, and have kept a low profile ever since. By nature, especially now, I'm a tortoise, not a hare: in other words, I won't be doing full blown brain dumps ...
<pithy mode off>
<slightly flowery mode on>
* Have always been interested in home audio, as a hobby, since the early 70's and did the usual rounds of fiddling with the gear of the time. Then, in the mid-80's, got into very heavy duty tweaking, because the more "extreme" the things I did the more audible benefits were heard. This progressed until one day I got what I call the "good" sound: this was was quite unintentional, purely accidental. I was bowled over, it was a true WTF moment ...
* I have used numerous techniques over the years to pursue the goal of replicating this quality of sound at will. During this time and especially of late, I have developed some IP which I aim to commercialise in some way, by some means. I am not in a financial position, in any sense, to have any other point of view than this.
* But, the results I aim for are achievable without using that IP, they are speed up agents, ways of shortcutting the journey
* To restate my audio goal, most people at some time have experienced sound which causes them to exclaim something along the lines of, "that system has no right to sound as musical, as convincing, so unlike normal hifi, as it does!! It seems nothing special, what the hell is going on, what are the magic tricks making it happen?!". My journey has been to understand those "tricks" as best I can, and apply them using an engineer's perspective as much as I can to very ordinary equipment -- no magic stones, or wierdo cables in my kit bag.
<slightly flowery mode off>
Next post, will have <controversial mode on> -- scary, disturbing bits to come ...
Frank
Behringer is quite good quality stuff usually, I am surprised that there is a lot of critisism here. Am I right or just misguided?
Probably a bit of both.
I've repaired quite a bit of Behringer stuff, some of it is really quite good,
some of it is real rubbish. The operative here is cost driven design to the
extreme, so in some areas it impacts greatly, others not.
FWIW a lot of techs won't even touch it.
cheers
Z
I picked up a EP1500 amp and a UB802 mixer cheaply. They seem to be quite good and I like the look of the assemblies. So far they are impressive even though the mixer is a gen purpose thing, seems to have good specs. The amplifier is certainly capable of putting out the power it states, and it doesn't seem to have any worry-som noises even at high and sustained levels of output.
The Behringer B2031 (A or P, I'd pick the passive version, personally) are seriously good for the money. Zaph and Geddes have both commented on their good performance, especially with cost in consideration. However, they can be improved a bit, and it's already been done. The most obvious and detrimental effects that could easily be improved was that of the ports causing a raggedness in the tweeter's response. There's also a small amount of woofer breakup making it's way through, as the crossover is around 2.5 KHz IIRC (with an 8" poly cone woofer).
I guess this is the type of thing that's trying to be discussed here? I'm still not really sure.
Anyway, I'd love to have something similar to the B2031P's, except sealed with a bit more sensitivity (and less bass, for use with subwoofers). I think something very similar could be designed around a waveguided tweeter and sealed 8" midwoofer with an average sensitivity around 93dB/watt or more (before bafflestep etc). With a shallow slope on some nice large subwoofers that fit the criteria, BSC likely wouldn't be necessary. If the Behringer's were like this, I'd be all over them.
..I guess this is where DIY comes in handy.
I guess this is the type of thing that's trying to be discussed here? I'm still not really sure.
Anyway, I'd love to have something similar to the B2031P's, except sealed with a bit more sensitivity (and less bass, for use with subwoofers). I think something very similar could be designed around a waveguided tweeter and sealed 8" midwoofer with an average sensitivity around 93dB/watt or more (before bafflestep etc). With a shallow slope on some nice large subwoofers that fit the criteria, BSC likely wouldn't be necessary. If the Behringer's were like this, I'd be all over them.
..I guess this is where DIY comes in handy.
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Hmmm I didn't go to powered speakers if that's what you are talking about ( I don't know the B2031 but will have a look) I have Bailey transmission lines scaled up for 12" drivers and fitted some car subs from Deals Direct (Kingsound) Satelite mids and tweeters are added but the bottom end with that Behringer EP1500 is astounding and very clean at the same time as providing very clear mids and all the tops I can hear. I listen to Rock and Roll, orchestral, female vocals like Mama Cass, Judith Durham and Caren Carpenter, Enja etc. I enjoy some jazz, but find quality CD's very hard to find now, disappointed with having sold off all my records.....I have simple needs..
Thanks for the good vibes, guys ...
Yes, I'm afraid it's going to be slow and steady: I really meant it about overcooking the headspace - too much razzle dazzle, too much strong focus, and my brain shuts down, I've learnt that I have to pace things these days.
Before I go too deep, I don't have an edit button for my posts, what's the story here? I need a getoutofjail option
Frank
Yes, I'm afraid it's going to be slow and steady: I really meant it about overcooking the headspace - too much razzle dazzle, too much strong focus, and my brain shuts down, I've learnt that I have to pace things these days.
Before I go too deep, I don't have an edit button for my posts, what's the story here? I need a getoutofjail option
Frank
Okay, appears to relate to when the instant display of post kicked in - so I should be right now!
Before the more "interesting" stuff, a quick word on the Behringer: when I was looking at where to go with the concept I did the rounds of pro music shops and listened to as much gear as I could, typically mostly running hard into the red line, point of overload. The Behringer stood out, showing good signs in the areas I worry about: by contrast, top of line Mackie, and pricey Dynaudios were nobbled, for me, probably by design decisions and other factors. This last bit should probably have <controversial mode on> ... ! The good bit, is that the Behringers are also cheap!
On to the serious stuff, so <controversial mode on> !
* A lot of the things most people worry about, I find are unimportant. For example, lots of people have hysterics about getting the frequency response just right, but I have never worried about this: if it happens to be spot on that's fine, but I not fussed about it, there are bigger fish to fry ...
* In that context, the intrinsic quality, measurable performance, of many of the key components I find not to be such an important factor. This can't be repeated often enough, because most people here would say the drivers are crucial to determining the end quality of sound ... I did use the word, "controversial" ... !! I'll really upset a few here, when I have <really irk some people mode on>, and describe what my current system is, and does ...
* Hence the carcase, drivers, chip amps, general circuitry topology won't be altered, they're perfectly good as is. But, the electricals, and electronics are littered with weaknesses which are dragging the potentional quality down. So, my job, the key thing that has to be done is to identify every single one of those weaknesses -- don't miss a single one! -- and sort them out: fix, bypass, rejig, re-engineer, every one of them and then I should achieve "fabulous" sound ...
* Why I know this works is because I have done this over and over again, to a variety of gear, from pretty expensive to downright ordinary, and it's always worked. I repeat, it's always worked!
* What's good about most active monitors is that they go to maximum level and, for me, still remain intact, the sound quality does not dramatically alter. But, they sound "small", no matter how loud they go. And typically grey, dreary, uninteresting. And this has nothing to do with their bass output.
* Note that I'm not a bass freak, in fact that is the least important aspect of the sound for me, I haven't the slightest interest in the whole subwoofer thing. But, the bass notes have to be as tight and sharp as possible, which is all about the harmonics coming through correctly.
* Everything matters, everything matters, everything matters! This is a mantra most people would pay at least lip service to, but if you take such a guiding philosophy fully to heart, deadly seriously, then it will pay huge dividends.
<controversial mode off>
Time to put the feet up again ...
Frank
Before the more "interesting" stuff, a quick word on the Behringer: when I was looking at where to go with the concept I did the rounds of pro music shops and listened to as much gear as I could, typically mostly running hard into the red line, point of overload. The Behringer stood out, showing good signs in the areas I worry about: by contrast, top of line Mackie, and pricey Dynaudios were nobbled, for me, probably by design decisions and other factors. This last bit should probably have <controversial mode on> ... ! The good bit, is that the Behringers are also cheap!
On to the serious stuff, so <controversial mode on> !
* A lot of the things most people worry about, I find are unimportant. For example, lots of people have hysterics about getting the frequency response just right, but I have never worried about this: if it happens to be spot on that's fine, but I not fussed about it, there are bigger fish to fry ...
* In that context, the intrinsic quality, measurable performance, of many of the key components I find not to be such an important factor. This can't be repeated often enough, because most people here would say the drivers are crucial to determining the end quality of sound ... I did use the word, "controversial" ... !! I'll really upset a few here, when I have <really irk some people mode on>, and describe what my current system is, and does ...
* Hence the carcase, drivers, chip amps, general circuitry topology won't be altered, they're perfectly good as is. But, the electricals, and electronics are littered with weaknesses which are dragging the potentional quality down. So, my job, the key thing that has to be done is to identify every single one of those weaknesses -- don't miss a single one! -- and sort them out: fix, bypass, rejig, re-engineer, every one of them and then I should achieve "fabulous" sound ...
* Why I know this works is because I have done this over and over again, to a variety of gear, from pretty expensive to downright ordinary, and it's always worked. I repeat, it's always worked!
* What's good about most active monitors is that they go to maximum level and, for me, still remain intact, the sound quality does not dramatically alter. But, they sound "small", no matter how loud they go. And typically grey, dreary, uninteresting. And this has nothing to do with their bass output.
* Note that I'm not a bass freak, in fact that is the least important aspect of the sound for me, I haven't the slightest interest in the whole subwoofer thing. But, the bass notes have to be as tight and sharp as possible, which is all about the harmonics coming through correctly.
* Everything matters, everything matters, everything matters! This is a mantra most people would pay at least lip service to, but if you take such a guiding philosophy fully to heart, deadly seriously, then it will pay huge dividends.
<controversial mode off>
Time to put the feet up again ...
Frank
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So far it's gone nowhere fast
There is no reason to be so mysterious and non-specific - just say what you do and how/why you do it, and please show before and after measurements.
Or don't.
There is no reason to be so mysterious and non-specific - just say what you do and how/why you do it, and please show before and after measurements.
Or don't.
Fair enough comment ...
But, there is a reason to be non-specific, because what I've done has varied over the years. And the reason for that is because I'm still experimenting in, firstly, understanding what causes the sound quality changes to occur, and secondly, what's the best, the most robust way of solving a particular sound "defect". As an example, one key requirement for getting good sound is having a good quality power supply -- yes, everyone knows this is important, but you'll always struggle to get optimum sound, as far as I'm concerned, unless you put enormous effort in getting this area as "perfect" as possible.
So, the first way I fixed the power supply of a typical audiophile amplifier, starting 25 years ago, were all the usual ways for the time: improving the connections to the screw top caps, adding extra capacitance, lowering ESR, inserting more local capacitance. This all helped to a decent degree, but there were still problems. Then I did my variation of chip amps, used effectively actively, with my own ideas: here the power supply, regulated, was well over 3/4 of the real estate, the amp itself was almost irrelevant. My current system, an upgrade of an old audio setup, I've barely touched the intrinsic supply topology - what I've worried about here is stopping interference from the mains, etc, leaking through to the audio circuitry.
And in that vein, the biggest sin in the active monitor is the miserable power supply, a real beginner's unit, absolutely nothing done to to make its operation more robust. Which is the major reason why it sounds "small", so a lot of work will be done here ...
Again, what I "do" is identify weaknesses, and fix them. And "how" do I know there's a weakness? By the fact that the reproduced sound is not "right"; my ears are my measuring gear, apart from a straightforward multmeter. Like most people I have a bunch of recordings that tell me where the sound's at, and that's totally what I go by.
And here I might throw in a <really irk some people mode on>:
* My mantra is that there is no such thing as a "bad" recording. Yes, there are difficult recordings, which will sound bad, really bad on a lot of people's systems, but I see them as your best friend. Because, that "badness" is telling you, or me specifically, that the system has problems, weaknesses - something that has to be addressed. Every, I repeat, every time I thought I had found a truly 'orrible recording that couldn't be rescued, be able to sound worth listening to, I've always been proven wrong in the end
<really irk some people mode off>
As I said above, there are no measurements that I do, in the sense that a lot of people in the forum would do such. This falls 100% in the area of the ideas discussed in this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/200865-sound-quality-vs-measurements.html.
So, what are the weaknesses I talk of? Well, I mentioned some of them in an earlier post here, and to point a finger at another problem child: connections of poor integrity. Would you create a circuit where every part was linked to the others by pushing the leads between two springy bits of metal? Think about it ...
Frank
Frank, you're being frustratingly long-winded about this, ever promising but hardly delivering. Very similar to how soap operas work.
This is an interesting topic, but we're on the fourth page already and there's nothing substantial. Would you mind, please, cutting to the nitty gritty? What do you actually do?
This is an interesting topic, but we're on the fourth page already and there's nothing substantial. Would you mind, please, cutting to the nitty gritty? What do you actually do?
Unfortunately we never quite get to that stage (hi frank)... why do you think he ended up with that 'unfortunate' experience on the other forum??
Look forward to the talk about the tweeter, about how he can get the full stereo experience one inch away from it and let us not forget that Status Quo will appear.
How is the 2500 watt amp going frank?
Well, we have one point so far: power supply issues.
I think he said leakage from the mains in through the supply. Fair enough. Question is, what to do, how to fix, modify, upgrade?
Sounds like the premise is at least in part that almost all electronics/speakers are actually pretty good, it's something in the implementation that is the bad stuff that is being heard.
_-_-bear
I think he said leakage from the mains in through the supply. Fair enough. Question is, what to do, how to fix, modify, upgrade?
Sounds like the premise is at least in part that almost all electronics/speakers are actually pretty good, it's something in the implementation that is the bad stuff that is being heard.
_-_-bear
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