Hi, terry (yes, a "sparring" partner from the other forum ...) -- and it's 2400W actually ...
And that other stuff will emerge too ...
bear is actually right on the money: "almost all electronics/speakers are actually pretty good, it's something in the implementation that is the bad stuff that is being heard." is actually as good a way of restating my POV as any. Which is why me sprouting a cooking recipe of precisely what I do for fixing a particular system will be relatively useless -- a few people will blindly follow what I do, for their gear, and it won't work, it will very likely make it sound worse, to their ears. Because, I have always found the better a system becomes, the more sensitive it is to the last remaining problems throwing the sound quality, in really unpleasant ways. Car analogy: you improve the suspension and engine, the car can go faster. But, the wheels have never been balanced , which was never an issue when the vehicle was just used as a hack -- at the higher speeds it's now capable of the vibration makes the car a nightmare to be in ...
Along those lines, I heard a particular Mackie monitor model in 3 different shops. And in only one instance did it not sound dreary, lifeless: the amount of interference from the surrounding sea of electronics made sure of that.
So the key thing I would always emphasise is that the most important thing in getting audio to sound "right" is to have the right mindset, which is that everything matters and all weaknesses, problem areas have to be eliminated. Which means, that someone who believes the drivers and crossovers are all important, and the electronics can be anything that fits the bill
, is going to have a harder road ...
bear mentioned power supplies. So how do you fix them? I haven't decided yet exactly what I'll do with the monitors I have, the simple answer is I'll keep improving them until that is no longer an issue. I've already mentioned some of the ways I've used in the past, which is all the standard stuff that everyone uses, plus on my current system some IP mod's. And how do I know that the supplies are good enough? When the monitor can go to maximum volume with no change in sound character: this is always the giveaway that the supplies are below par, and why people use audiophile amps with massive power ratings, and huge power supplies. Enormous headroom is the easy, and relatively clumsy way of solving the power supply issue, but the monitors have only so much space for this approach.
And yes, people keep asking what do I do. And I answer, I identify weaknesses and fix them, one by one, until the good sound emerges. This seems to frustrate people, as if I'm supposed to identify the weaknesses that other people have, on the other side of the world. Many times on the other forum I suggested to people what they should look at, consider and I was either ignored, laughed at, or treated as an imbecile. Hence I'm not busting to spill vast volumes on such for the moment ...
And it is going to be slow ... I'm in slow mode myself at the moment, and that's just the way it is.
Finally, I'm not fussed about the tweeter - it sounds good enough to me, and if they fail it's because the protection circuitry didn't do its job. Monitors actually model the heating effects of the signal being fed to the drivers, via circuitry, and cut the output when endangered. So possibly that circuitry wasn't good enough, or was missing ...
Frank
And that other stuff will emerge too ...
bear is actually right on the money: "almost all electronics/speakers are actually pretty good, it's something in the implementation that is the bad stuff that is being heard." is actually as good a way of restating my POV as any. Which is why me sprouting a cooking recipe of precisely what I do for fixing a particular system will be relatively useless -- a few people will blindly follow what I do, for their gear, and it won't work, it will very likely make it sound worse, to their ears. Because, I have always found the better a system becomes, the more sensitive it is to the last remaining problems throwing the sound quality, in really unpleasant ways. Car analogy: you improve the suspension and engine, the car can go faster. But, the wheels have never been balanced , which was never an issue when the vehicle was just used as a hack -- at the higher speeds it's now capable of the vibration makes the car a nightmare to be in ...
Along those lines, I heard a particular Mackie monitor model in 3 different shops. And in only one instance did it not sound dreary, lifeless: the amount of interference from the surrounding sea of electronics made sure of that.
So the key thing I would always emphasise is that the most important thing in getting audio to sound "right" is to have the right mindset, which is that everything matters and all weaknesses, problem areas have to be eliminated. Which means, that someone who believes the drivers and crossovers are all important, and the electronics can be anything that fits the bill
, is going to have a harder road ...bear mentioned power supplies. So how do you fix them? I haven't decided yet exactly what I'll do with the monitors I have, the simple answer is I'll keep improving them until that is no longer an issue. I've already mentioned some of the ways I've used in the past, which is all the standard stuff that everyone uses, plus on my current system some IP mod's. And how do I know that the supplies are good enough? When the monitor can go to maximum volume with no change in sound character: this is always the giveaway that the supplies are below par, and why people use audiophile amps with massive power ratings, and huge power supplies. Enormous headroom is the easy, and relatively clumsy way of solving the power supply issue, but the monitors have only so much space for this approach
.And yes, people keep asking what do I do. And I answer, I identify weaknesses and fix them, one by one, until the good sound emerges. This seems to frustrate people, as if I'm supposed to identify the weaknesses that other people have, on the other side of the world. Many times on the other forum I suggested to people what they should look at, consider and I was either ignored, laughed at, or treated as an imbecile. Hence I'm not busting to spill vast volumes on such for the moment ...
And it is going to be slow ... I'm in slow mode myself at the moment, and that's just the way it is.
Finally, I'm not fussed about the tweeter - it sounds good enough to me, and if they fail it's because the protection circuitry didn't do its job. Monitors actually model the heating effects of the signal being fed to the drivers, via circuitry, and cut the output when endangered. So possibly that circuitry wasn't good enough, or was missing ...
Frank
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You don't need to "spill vast volumes", Frank, we want the opposite. So far you have used many, many words to say nothing. Every few posts someone expresses their frustration with your posts and you respond to the criticism by repeating yourself. Maybe if you applied your talent for seeking out and correcting flaws in equipment to your character, forum life would be a little kinder to you. I am saying this gently, without frustration. I don't think you are an imbecile nor am I laughing. Strangely, I am mesmerized by this.
Oh dear ... it's deja vu, all over again ...
I've got a feeling that no-one's gonna get it, ever, which is that you fix, modify equipment with a certain attitude. The precise nature of the fixing is not relevant - it's always things that have been mentioned numerous times, in multiple places.
Or, to restate, you say to yourself that the equipment you're listening to right now is capable of delivering sound as good as you would ever want it to be. But ... you have to eliminate every defect, every problem area for that to happen. That's the "nothing" I'm saying, and until you get that, really get that, then my technical bits and pieces are just an indistinguishable part of the great wash of information that's already out there ...
And I will repeat what was said of John Curl's contributions: he was abused for not doing a brain dump, but other, kinder folk pointed out that he was helping to prod people to get a better handle on what's important. In my own, meagre way that's what I'm doing ...
Frank
I've got a feeling that no-one's gonna get it, ever, which is that you fix, modify equipment with a certain attitude. The precise nature of the fixing is not relevant - it's always things that have been mentioned numerous times, in multiple places.
Or, to restate, you say to yourself that the equipment you're listening to right now is capable of delivering sound as good as you would ever want it to be. But ... you have to eliminate every defect, every problem area for that to happen. That's the "nothing" I'm saying, and until you get that, really get that, then my technical bits and pieces are just an indistinguishable part of the great wash of information that's already out there ...
And I will repeat what was said of John Curl's contributions: he was abused for not doing a brain dump, but other, kinder folk pointed out that he was helping to prod people to get a better handle on what's important. In my own, meagre way that's what I'm doing ...
Frank
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Well, you posted in "Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way", whereas you seem to be trying to advocating a philosophy- The Zen of Tweaking if you will.
But maybe you are digressing from your own stated goals of taking a Behringer monitor and wringing the best out of it. May I suggest that you turn this thread into a project log? Perhaps break it into system parts: tweeter, mid/bass, power supply, etc., and show/tell us what you are doing to it as you go along. I think we get the Everything Counts in Large Amounts bit.
But maybe you are digressing from your own stated goals of taking a Behringer monitor and wringing the best out of it. May I suggest that you turn this thread into a project log? Perhaps break it into system parts: tweeter, mid/bass, power supply, etc., and show/tell us what you are doing to it as you go along. I think we get the Everything Counts in Large Amounts bit.
But now on to some practical matters ... I've taken the liberty of quoting from bear's website to make a point, hope you don't mind, bear!!
And bear's sentiments are spot on, the best cable is no cable. And the method I use to resolve that is to completely hardwire the system; just like an active monitor, almost! The weaknesses here are the end connections to the cable, they introduce audible artifacts, and then the construction of the cable filters, shapes the final spectrum of that subtle distortion.
The cable I then use is boring, cheap as chips copper, and I don't have any problems ...
Frank
This is talking about his interconnects, but it could be about anyone's products. This irksome "mess" is what so many audio people deal with, that just changing the way a cable is organised, or made, changes the sound. That has to be totally got rid of, I'm sorry to say, for the sellers of expensive cables - I aim for the cable to truly have zero impact.
And bear's sentiments are spot on, the best cable is no cable. And the method I use to resolve that is to completely hardwire the system; just like an active monitor, almost! The weaknesses here are the end connections to the cable, they introduce audible artifacts, and then the construction of the cable filters, shapes the final spectrum of that subtle distortion.
The cable I then use is boring, cheap as chips copper, and I don't have any problems ...
Frank
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Thanks for that, Shaun. The project log is exactly what I'm aiming to do, I asked at the beginning if here was the right space, but no-one jumped on me then ...
So, I will go through the steps. Not all will be revealed, because I am hoping to make a buck or two out of it, hah, but the way I go about it, what shapes my thinking, what my measures for "success" will be clear ...
In light of that, as already indicated pretty strongly, my number one concern is the power supply, to beef it up intelligently. This will up the dynamics, and allow me to more clearly hear the next round of problems, that have to be sorted.
Frank
So, I will go through the steps. Not all will be revealed, because I am hoping to make a buck or two out of it, hah
, but the way I go about it, what shapes my thinking, what my measures for "success" will be clear ...In light of that, as already indicated pretty strongly, my number one concern is the power supply, to beef it up intelligently. This will up the dynamics, and allow me to more clearly hear the next round of problems, that have to be sorted.
Frank
What is that "attitude" you refer to, that you tinker with various parts till your own mind accepts that is does sound "better" regardless if it really does change the sound or not? You don't measure anything so perhaps it's a belief system?
So it is a belief system because lets face it, no one can "eliminate every defect" in a system, otherwise the manufacturers would jump on this "method" and make a remarkable product that they could sell for a LOT of money.
If the "technical bits and pieces" are already out there and it's just your "nothing" that needs applied then it sounds similar to some sort of mind set like "feng shui"
well lets see some results before we all fall asleep please.
Not all will be revealed, because I am hoping to make a buck or two out of it, hah
Frank
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh
well never mind, have "fun"and good luck with THAT
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh
Ain't that the truth, but then audiophool circles never cease to amaze when it comes to these things.
Frank, I don't think anyone really has any issues with what is it that you are posting, after all tweaking/modifying is where a lot of us started, it's just that all you've done so far is talk a lot. No one here needs more words or reiterations thrown their direction to be convinced or otherwise, you've already set the stage quite convincingly. All you need to do now is actually show us you working on a pair of loudspeakers and if you wish to be taken half seriously you will need to provide measurements of your improvements working.
At the risk of becoming a target - guess that is always a risk - my 'flagship' amplifier (which can be seen on my website, and no you can not buy one) uses a power supply more appropriate to an amp of about 20x the power rating. Overkill for certain. However the character of the amp does not vary on difficult passages nor on peaks nor on peaks with difficult passages.
In essence the amplifier is merely a way to control the interface between the power supply and the speakers, thinking this way merely serves to highlight a way of thinking.
I have no idea what fas42 is thinking or what *his* methods might be.
My view is that optimizing what you have to work with is always a good idea. You get the most and best you can from what you have if you do a good job.
To me it seems preferable if you are a DIYer to go beyond the commercially available offerings and concoct your own brew, trying to eliminate the issues and compromises that are most irksome to you in the process.
So far this is an offering by fas42 of philosophy, not practice or enginerring. Why not discuss the philosophy and perhaps practice and substantive engineering will emerge, or not?
A side note - everyone who posts or reads has the option of starting their own thread and "getting it right". Maybe that is a good option to exercise.
_-_-bear
In essence the amplifier is merely a way to control the interface between the power supply and the speakers, thinking this way merely serves to highlight a way of thinking.
I have no idea what fas42 is thinking or what *his* methods might be.
My view is that optimizing what you have to work with is always a good idea. You get the most and best you can from what you have if you do a good job.
To me it seems preferable if you are a DIYer to go beyond the commercially available offerings and concoct your own brew, trying to eliminate the issues and compromises that are most irksome to you in the process.
So far this is an offering by fas42 of philosophy, not practice or enginerring. Why not discuss the philosophy and perhaps practice and substantive engineering will emerge, or not?
A side note - everyone who posts or reads has the option of starting their own thread and "getting it right". Maybe that is a good option to exercise.
_-_-bear
If anyone's missed it, I've already stated that I'm not in a financial position to have any other attitude than that. Yes, it would feel good to comprehensively elaborate on every little subtlety that I've come across in all those years, and if I was Mr Moneybags, no harm done. But, I'm not so lucky, life gets in the way, as they say, so this is just the way it has to be ...Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh
As a result of the above, my energies are pretty lacklustre, so it will be slow going. No photos or measurements as yet will indicate anything of value, and conventional measurements will hardly show anything of value when the final beast emerges - I come from the school that says all the wrong things are being measured, conventionally, in terms of what makes a system reproduce music, versus being a hifi.
This is probably as good a time a time as any to mention what my current listening system is -- terry, you can let it rip! -- it's an all in one Philips HT, 20W per channel, a throwaway from a family member, worth maybe $5 in a yard sale. This was, is being used as a testbed for ideas: it looks a total mess, because it's effectively a prototyping platform. But, it delivers the goods, and when described on the other forum people there went into major meltdown. The idea of tweaking such a device was to determine whether my ideas could work for supposed lowly levels of gear, and it's done the job. To put things into context, a couple of weeks back I visited a high end showroom, easily a half million dollars worth of kit to play with, and I tired of the sound very rapidily: bombastic bass, scrawny treble, lacklustre; very little resembled music. So, that's how I "measure": I listen, and evaluate on the basis of how closely it resembles real music. For me, anything else is a waste of time.
Frank
bear, you've got my drift better than just about anyone else!
No problems with having an "oversized" power supply, it's a perfectly valid way to go if the end result, good sound, is your number one priority. As you say, the character of the amp does not vary on difficult passages: an absolute prerequisite for securing musical playback. In my early days of making "discoveries" about audio I did tours of hifi shops with irksome CDs, like the Status Quo that terry mentioned, and was quite amazed how badly most amplifiers performed. Things are much improved these days, it seems, the better engineered amps are considerably more capable.
So, yes, the power supply is all important: it's meant to be a "pure" DC level, but it's typically miles away from such. Years ago, I did a neat trick: drove a reasonable amplifier fairly hard, and then treated its power rail as an audio input into another amplifier, so that I could "listen" to the power supply via speakers. Hooo boy!! It was an unholy mess, good background music for a horror movie, the PSRR was being severely tested!!
Exactly so. I would take my cheap and nasty HT over any commercial device, no matter how expensive it was, if I couldn't "fix" it. Because, the "fixing", for me, takes it from a hifi to something that reproduces music.
Frank
Move this along or it will be transfered to the "Lounge" or closed. So far, all I see is long-winded tolling. Trolling is against the rules. Period
We aren't getting any younger waiting for results
and the last couple of posts from the OP makes it pretty clear what the OP considers "hi-Fi"
I apologise if this is coming across to some people as trolling, that's certainly not the intention of my posts so far ...
So, henceforth this thread will serve purely as placeholder for comments very specifically on the status of the project to date, as least as far as I'm concerned.
But since I'm very interested in the concept of what sound reproduction can achieve, and to respond to the last comments, I'll kick off a new thread in the Lounge, called, in honour of Shaun's wry comment, http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ect-musical-studio-monitor-5.html#post3074982, "A Zen of Audio".
Frank
So, henceforth this thread will serve purely as placeholder for comments very specifically on the status of the project to date, as least as far as I'm concerned.
But since I'm very interested in the concept of what sound reproduction can achieve, and to respond to the last comments, I'll kick off a new thread in the Lounge, called, in honour of Shaun's wry comment, http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ect-musical-studio-monitor-5.html#post3074982, "A Zen of Audio".
Frank
Nahh Frank, I won't let rip. I felt a little bit of remorse about my earlier post but alas, there seems to be a time limit for editing, I was too late to delete it.
Beside, you are doing a damned fine job of elucidating my earlier post, you need no help from me!
A pic of your system might be a good idea tho.....
Colour me nonplussed, but it IS possible you didn't get it???? Your claims for the performance of your little HTIAB were simply amusing to all and sundry, what began to irk most was your incessant jumping into every thread proclaiming your mantra which I believe was the reason you were eventually quarantined from the body of the forum??
On the plus side you always maintained your dignity (for lack of a better word) but on the minus, well it was death from a thousand keystrokes.
You have not shown much change from what I can see. Maybe have a look at how you might come across and see what you can change? In any case, apologies for my earlier outburst, I do regret it.
The invitation still stands if you ever want to venture out this way.
Your comments about bombastic bass etc, have you ever considered that you are simply conditioned/accustomed to your own sound? That is fine, but that would also imply you don't have much to share with the people here eh? Different strokes and all that, but I get the feeling bass is important to the majority here, not something akin to a HTIAB bass either.
Plow your own furrow frank is my advice, nothing wrong with that. But to try and convert others to a singular slant will garner much the same reaction as going into church on sunday praising the devil, and goes a long way in explaining your earlier forum reception and the one you seem to be creating here.
Less talk, more action.
Doing it more intelligently. If you simulate what real components behave like in a power supply using, say, LTspice, my best buddy, with all the real parasitic behaviours that accompany them -- in other words, don't pretend they are perfect in some areas, because they are most certainly not -- you'll get a bit of a shock. If you ignore the fact that real parts are a wad of inconvenient truths, then it will bite you on the bum. With less than optimum sound.
My chip amp used a very, very stiff regulated power supply. As in, I could pull the power cord from the wall while playing music at a reasonable level, and the track would keep playing for a period of several minutes, no change in quality, depending upon bass content. That's ... a power supply!!
Frank
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