this is DIY site, and i find that TS only create a new thread under this Elekit sub forum...hmm
i usually just ignore commercial guy opinion on DIY stuff, and this thread is not under MultiWay which usually discuss OB related.
no offence TS, but not sure whether you have built OB or box speaker, not for selling/buying commercial products only
i usually just ignore commercial guy opinion on DIY stuff, and this thread is not under MultiWay which usually discuss OB related.
no offence TS, but not sure whether you have built OB or box speaker, not for selling/buying commercial products only
This is my old photo. I do not sell ELROG any more. I only offer Western Electric 300B.. I prefer WE300B...
Must have been a tough mid to work with in general. I've found every mid I tried to be fine for the most part, dc130, tebm46 bmr, rs180, some peerless 6.5".
By the same token, the descriptors people use can sometimes give clues as to what's going on under the surface.
For instance, what's the dirt on a clean sounding system? Why even think in terms of cleanliness? Is there an aroma of "detergent residue" suggesting that the sound has been cleaned up?
You hear a sound system for the first time in your life yet it sounds 'clean' -- how do you know there was ever a less clean version?
This all ties in with the distortion debate, and the endless disagreements about things like negative feedback for example. Since I'm unable to audition every system out there, I have to make do with extracting maximum meaning from the language people use.
Alpair 5 -- great driver, but pronably just a bad idea to put it on a smallish open baffle and expect a monopole woofer to seamlessly fill in below the cut-off.
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Well... I was ready to mention the MAGNEPAN speakers, but they do have crossovers...
Using classic electrodynamic speakers, I wonder if an Open Baffle or Plane Baffle with multiple speakers without crossover offering satisfactory results really exists... To be honest, I don't know. Maybe ?
With a single Full-Range speaker mounted in Open Baffle or Plane Baffle, this speaker should be circa 7" diameter to offer the best bandwidth compromise, and the size of the matching baffle would then be very large to avoid acoustic short-circuit that inevitably occurs in the low frequencies, in order to achieve a suitable bass extension - think several Sq.Mtrs. surface...
But it's me, OK ?
T
These should not do a good job, but they do…to my subjective ears at least.
I have not tried to find out the truth by taking measurements.
There is no the best... I use Window, Linux, Unix and OS. There is no the best
There is no prefect system... No matter what system you use There is always at least some constraints... in every system
So... how do you know it is the best? you need to try by yourself.. good for me it does not mean good for you
I want my coffee no sugar only 2 drops of 2% milk but prefer to add honey...
It is no point to augur ..
As I said this is my personal experience in order to reproduce good human voice system must be as simple as possible.
You can agree or disagree... AS I said I want my coffee no sugar only 2% milk. You want too add honey that is your choice...
That is fine.. ... NO point to argue.. Good or the best is a very subjective matter.
If you do not understand what I want to communicate here is the summary
The simple is the best to reproduce human voice ... The more you add the more you will lose.
You can agree or disagree... AS I said I want my coffee no sugar only 2% milk. You want too add honey that is your choice...
That is fine.. ... NO point to argue.. Good or the best is a very subjective matter.
If you do not understand what I want to communicate here is the summary
The simple is the best to reproduce human voice ... The more you add the more you will lose.
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I agree with vkung that a full-range driver reproduces voice better than a multi-way speaker.
We each have our preferences. I like another open-baffle speaker, Maggies, because they can reproduce the sound of no equipment at all (on minimally-miked recordings). This is not the usual high-fidelity sound but rather the sound of nothing.
Ed
We each have our preferences. I like another open-baffle speaker, Maggies, because they can reproduce the sound of no equipment at all (on minimally-miked recordings). This is not the usual high-fidelity sound but rather the sound of nothing.
Ed
Fine & interesting work, @EIArte !
Would you tell me more about your OB release here ?
- can I see a back picture of this OB ?
- whick speaker do you use ?
- what are the dimensions of that OB ? (seems to be small to me, but I may be wrong !)
- do you use any equalization with it ? Or additional Subwoofer or Super-Tweeter ?
Thanks !
T
In chamber music (quintets and up) and jazz there are instruments like bass guitar or double bass (contrabass), which have low frequency fundamental as low as 41.2 Hz (E1). Your examples of crippled OB designs (single fullrange driver) have no ability to reproduce such low frequency notes, so clearly such OB designs are not the best for the true jazz and chamber music lovers, which do care about frequencies in the 40 - 65 Hz range.
All OB designs with single fullrange drivers I have heard were hopelessly deficient in the bass range and have unbearably colored sound with any type of music, including jazz and chamber music.
I listen to chamber music and jazz on open baffle speakers almost daily, and I am very happy with them. They have a sound that I like. People have differing interests and that is perfectly reasonable.
I like deep bass response, but it is not a priority with me. Open baffle systems can have deep bass, it is just naturally attenuated.
I think one possible explanation for the popularity of open baffle speakers is that the fundamental bass resonance of the driver is attenuated by the dipole effect. Reduced resonances could easily explain a more detailed sound.
Another possible explanation is the relationship between the rear sound wave and the adjacent wall/floor surfaces, it is typically much longer than a boxed speaker.
I like deep bass response, but it is not a priority with me. Open baffle systems can have deep bass, it is just naturally attenuated.
I think one possible explanation for the popularity of open baffle speakers is that the fundamental bass resonance of the driver is attenuated by the dipole effect. Reduced resonances could easily explain a more detailed sound.
Another possible explanation is the relationship between the rear sound wave and the adjacent wall/floor surfaces, it is typically much longer than a boxed speaker.
It depends on the driver you used. ...You do not expect a low cost full range will offer you good result. Did you hear the Excentre from AER?
Fine & interesting work, @ElArte !
- Sorry, I misspelled your pseudo in my previous post... Would you tell me more about your OB release here ?
- can I see a back picture of this OB ?
- whick speaker do you use ?
- what are the dimensions of that OB ? (seems to be small to me, but I may be wrong !)
- do you use any equalization with it ? Or additional Subwoofer or Super-Tweeter ?
Thanks !
T
2-cents: In a live concert with acoustic instruments and vocals, both the high and low frequencies are very much attenuated, even for the choice seats. Our brains are wired to compensate -- "thought nothing of it" -- and consider the deficient live sound perfectly real, and "high-fidelity" sound to be unnatural. As Neondriver alluded to, OB took advantage of wall reflection to reinforce bass; this meant a wall-distance of 1.5-2m so ~50hz rear wave became in-phase with front wave, but delayed ~10ms. This echo did not smear the direct sound but instead added a kind of (false) sense of space and venue. (Transmission line speakers have a similar effect.)
The most "holographic" listening experience I've had involved vintage alnico speaker drivers in ad-hoc OB fashion, playing a Simon Lawson (sp?) CRD label recorded minimally (what I call purist). The orchestra was flat laid out before me, from a high-ish vantage point like the balcony seats but closer (probably suspended mics); recorded bass attenuated, no EQ boost, distant and diffuse. It was uncanny.
The most "holographic" listening experience I've had involved vintage alnico speaker drivers in ad-hoc OB fashion, playing a Simon Lawson (sp?) CRD label recorded minimally (what I call purist). The orchestra was flat laid out before me, from a high-ish vantage point like the balcony seats but closer (probably suspended mics); recorded bass attenuated, no EQ boost, distant and diffuse. It was uncanny.
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I must confess that nfortunately : yes, @Sonce... All of them ended in a box of some sort or helped at least in the bass range, in my attempts.
All the tests that my Audiophile friends and I have made came to the same conclusion about the bass range of a single fullrange installed in an OB : "deficient", or at best "lightweight", which doesn't mean bad or imbalanced in itself, OK ?
The solutions to improve bass extension were folding the OB, adding rear damping material, and in all cases, the overall dimensions of the OB remained very large... Hence my questions to @ElArte about his nice and interestingly compact OB baffle design.
One of my friend currently works on a "Fullrange Half-Rolled Horn" of his own - I heard the 1st prototype (below) and it's very promising, over the remarkable woodwork he achieved (below).
The speaker is a custom designed 8" Full-Range. This horn can operate standalone very convincingly, but a subwoofer can be suitably added on some music styles requiring bass extension under 40-60Hz - and OK, it's not an Open Baffle, but a Horn
...By curiosity, I had a look to the AER website...
... And here's what I read about the Excenter - I highlighted the concerned points :
Clearly, this spectacular AER Excenter OB where you point us, @vkung , is not a completely standalone example of single fullrange OB operation, since the addition of a subwoofer below 80-100Hz option is offered by the manufacturer himself.
In the late '90s-early 2000s, Mr. Axel Ridtahler - the inventor of the Ripole subwoofer - made similar interesting tests (below) with a Full-Range speaker with a molded transparent horn - in the same style as what designed AER - plus the addition of his patented Ripole sub to complement the bass extension :
That said, yes : the Full-Range speaker is a premium solution for reproducing single voices, single instrument chorusing, Manouche guitars, etc... And only this makes me already a single FR speaker advocate, but I am also honest about its limitations ( as pointed by @Sonce ).
One of the formulas I found satisfactory is using a large 7" or 8" quality Midrange / Full-range loudspeaker, helping that "center role" speaker in the lower and higher extensions, to overcome the bandwidth limitations while retaining the focalisation / image advantages as best. That's what I did in my DIY 375L monitors, where the 8" midrange has a FS at 82Hz, a natural baffle LPF at 110Hz, and is installed in a quite large sealed/filled enclosure (7.5L here - the grey thick resin flowerpot you see inside, at left, in the empty cabinet
) :Inevitably, there's a crossover here... But it's a 3-way serial-paralleled 6dB/Oct. one, using only 2 inductors and 2 capacitors, with transitions at 400Hz / 5000Hz and all speakers in polarity. This configuration leaves all that critical bandwidth "uncut" into the Midrange speaker, which works as a FR speaker in favourable conditions. The voices, the instruments are not "cut in pieces", as they come from only one speaker, which is helped in the ranges where often occurs those "deficiences" and "colorations" of a Full-Range speaker, if let in charge of the whole music spectrum.
T
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