Case in point...my old Premier One. Tube amps have a really low damping factor, pretty much by definition. Yet, the bass from that amp simply ate most solid state amps alive. Deep and tight. Incidentally, it also had low negative feedback--10dB if I recall. (Unheard of in solid state circles, where NFB can range up close to three digits in the blink of an eye.)
On the other hand, it did have a decent amount of power.
The MV-75 was roughly the same circuit, just with fewer output tubes and a smaller power supply. I got into a friend's MV-75 and did the capacitance thing on the power supply. The results were impressive.
Still, there are other factors are are difficult to predict. It's not just power supply, not just NFB, not just power, etc. Nor is it an easily understood subset of the known factors; as Nelson points out, there are counter-examples for nearly every known contributing factor.
And people claim THD numbers are sufficient to describe the sound of a piece of electronics...
That must be some seriously excellent leaf they're smoking.
Grey
P.S.: There are a disproportionate number of "classic" amps that have around 50-75 watts output. For some reason, that seems to be the peak of the bell curve. No one knows why.
On the other hand, it did have a decent amount of power.
The MV-75 was roughly the same circuit, just with fewer output tubes and a smaller power supply. I got into a friend's MV-75 and did the capacitance thing on the power supply. The results were impressive.
Still, there are other factors are are difficult to predict. It's not just power supply, not just NFB, not just power, etc. Nor is it an easily understood subset of the known factors; as Nelson points out, there are counter-examples for nearly every known contributing factor.
And people claim THD numbers are sufficient to describe the sound of a piece of electronics...
That must be some seriously excellent leaf they're smoking.
Grey
P.S.: There are a disproportionate number of "classic" amps that have around 50-75 watts output. For some reason, that seems to be the peak of the bell curve. No one knows why.
Grey
Thanks for the Comments, And Mr. Pass, Thank you for even considering my requests!! Your time in doing so is greatly appreciated.
My Listening room (18'x24'x9') system currently consists of a Soundcraftsmen PCR-800 Slightly modified. I have added some larger power supply caps (20Kuf to 50Kuf) and bypass caps etc...Nothing too major.
I also have and old Bryston 4B (revamped by Bryston) that has been in between the studio and the listening room.
My Speakers are Hales Revelation 3's in the L.R.
And custom Augsperger Double 15" & 2" & TAD HF boxes in the studio.
In the L.R. just by swapping in the 4B, there is huge improvement in the low end. Literally another octave is added. But the top end of the 4B is much harsher. I keep the S.C.'s in the L.R. just because there easier to listen too for long periods of time.
SPL's at my seated listening position normally peak around 85dB with 90-95dB max.
There might be something in the S.C. that is limiting the bottom end. Some design factor I am unaware of. Something in the feedback loop or Maybe the PCR regulator itself or whatever....
But, it’s not the low end that usually causes the clip light to come on! Its sharp HF transients! But severe low notes can do it too, like the Bela Fleck CD etc!!!
And please understand, I am not just blasting this thing (normally).
My Little Soundcraftsmen amps just don’t have enough oomph!!! As evidenced by the performance I get when I swap in the 4B. If my speakers were BiAmpable, I would use the SC's on the top and the 4B on the bottom! But there not so I am looking for another solution.
When I bought my Rev 3's, they were connected to a Classe' CA-400 amp in the showroom, 400W@8 per side. I spent several hours over many days listening to them and really liked the sound. I cannot afford a CA-400 however. AND I have wanted to build my own amps for many years now!!!
Yes, I am such a geek that I have lay awake many a night dreaming of the perfect chassis layout, power supply design, etc etc. Now I have acquired a killer pair of Toriods and I am ready to embark upon my amp building journey! Just one problem...no schematic yet.... and thus here we are.
As a professional sound system designer I am well aware of the differences and deficiencies of "Pro" amplifiers and speaker systems! MOST home audio gear would simply die under pro use and pro gear sounds like crap so there is no point in using it for home!
I have read many of the ZEN articles. All have been educational. There inefficiency is what makes me think they wouldn’t be right for my application. I am not against a Zen design per se. I am re-reading all of the Zen articles now in case my memory of such has failed me.
In fact the Singled Ended approach interests me somewhat. At one point many years ago I owned a Bedini BA-803 with some Vandersteen 2C’s and that amp was really smooth! Wish I had never sold it. 250W @8 ohms single ended with sliding Bias Class A.
I have been trying to find some schematics for that amp I remember it had 10 output transistors and used an 11th as a driver per channel. That’s all I knew about it. So if that amp was any indication of the differences between push pull and single ended. Then im all ears. But, then again. I have been over to Ralph Karstens Place from Atma-Sphere and his tube amps are just the opposite. Fully balanced push pull OTL circlotron designs. And there amazing! Granted those are tubes, but the design is fully symmetrical. And something about symmetrical designs have always just made sense to me.
For my first big amp project, I was just hoping for something a bit more universal. A revisit to text book amp design by the master himself so to speak. Sound quality does come first for me. That is most important. But Power rating is a close second, simply because I know my listening habits. And there are times when I want the paint to peel off the walls!!! But having to connect a direct tap to the HV line outside doesn’t interest me either. Nor does wasting much of that power in excessive heat (even if it is MN!).
To anyone else but me, I would recommend 200watts per channel as being a sufficient amount of power for home use. And if my speakers were more efficient, I would be satisfied with that as well. But all things being what they are, more power is needed (insert Tim the Tool Man Taylor Grunt here!).
I would be happy with building my own 200 watt per channel amp. But I will always wish for more. 1KW is way too much for me, but it would be nice to study from a design point and maybe fun to build for recreational purposes.
So 400 watts would be a nice all around number (for me at least)! Plenty of power for demanding passages or action movies. Plenty of headroom at normal listening levels. And more current then I have available now!!!! I will have no reason to upgrade unless a significant improvement in sound quality could be had. But that’s why I want NELSON PASS to design these!!!
Maybe were closer together on this then the other thinks. A push pull output stage using both N&P devices does interest me. And as long as it is as efficient as a normal amp design then a ZEN approach would be quite interesting.
But I was still hoping for something different, new, revised, or old. A break from the ZEN way of thinking. Just for fun. I have No doubt that there would be MUCH interest from others like me in such a design from Mr. Pass. I have no doubt that there are quite a few others like myself out here that have been just waiting for such a thing!
It has been frustrating thus far in trying to find such a design. You would be supplying us with something that is lacking and much needed/wanted! If I am wrong and there are build able good sounding 400+ watt designs available, PLEASE point me that way as I have not found any yet!
“It’s been done before” yes it has, and then it should be quite easy and require little effort from such a master. Think about it from an educational standpoint. Think of what all we could learn from a revamp of a traditional textbook design.
“Why” because I know of no other such design available for AA’s like me to build!
And because no one, that I know have, has offered a design that could be scaled from ? To 1Kw. It would be a first.
“What about supporting it” well that is an issue. I am sure there will be many questions asked. I could understand if you did not want to deal with all that. State that as submission policy. Say to us, Here it is, now you go deal with it hahahahah! Or if you really wanted to be anonymous, design it. Email it to me. I will submit it to the board without acknowledging its designer!
“What will I get out of it” Well that’s a good question. The knowledge that your design is making people happy world wide? Bragging rights? PCB sales $$$, Heck charge me/us for the design. Name it!
:Shrug:
Thanks for listening to my dream/rant
Zero
Thanks for the Comments, And Mr. Pass, Thank you for even considering my requests!! Your time in doing so is greatly appreciated.
My Listening room (18'x24'x9') system currently consists of a Soundcraftsmen PCR-800 Slightly modified. I have added some larger power supply caps (20Kuf to 50Kuf) and bypass caps etc...Nothing too major.
I also have and old Bryston 4B (revamped by Bryston) that has been in between the studio and the listening room.
My Speakers are Hales Revelation 3's in the L.R.
And custom Augsperger Double 15" & 2" & TAD HF boxes in the studio.
In the L.R. just by swapping in the 4B, there is huge improvement in the low end. Literally another octave is added. But the top end of the 4B is much harsher. I keep the S.C.'s in the L.R. just because there easier to listen too for long periods of time.
SPL's at my seated listening position normally peak around 85dB with 90-95dB max.
There might be something in the S.C. that is limiting the bottom end. Some design factor I am unaware of. Something in the feedback loop or Maybe the PCR regulator itself or whatever....
But, it’s not the low end that usually causes the clip light to come on! Its sharp HF transients! But severe low notes can do it too, like the Bela Fleck CD etc!!!
And please understand, I am not just blasting this thing (normally).
My Little Soundcraftsmen amps just don’t have enough oomph!!! As evidenced by the performance I get when I swap in the 4B. If my speakers were BiAmpable, I would use the SC's on the top and the 4B on the bottom! But there not so I am looking for another solution.
When I bought my Rev 3's, they were connected to a Classe' CA-400 amp in the showroom, 400W@8 per side. I spent several hours over many days listening to them and really liked the sound. I cannot afford a CA-400 however. AND I have wanted to build my own amps for many years now!!!
Yes, I am such a geek that I have lay awake many a night dreaming of the perfect chassis layout, power supply design, etc etc. Now I have acquired a killer pair of Toriods and I am ready to embark upon my amp building journey! Just one problem...no schematic yet.... and thus here we are.
As a professional sound system designer I am well aware of the differences and deficiencies of "Pro" amplifiers and speaker systems! MOST home audio gear would simply die under pro use and pro gear sounds like crap so there is no point in using it for home!
I have read many of the ZEN articles. All have been educational. There inefficiency is what makes me think they wouldn’t be right for my application. I am not against a Zen design per se. I am re-reading all of the Zen articles now in case my memory of such has failed me.
In fact the Singled Ended approach interests me somewhat. At one point many years ago I owned a Bedini BA-803 with some Vandersteen 2C’s and that amp was really smooth! Wish I had never sold it. 250W @8 ohms single ended with sliding Bias Class A.
I have been trying to find some schematics for that amp I remember it had 10 output transistors and used an 11th as a driver per channel. That’s all I knew about it. So if that amp was any indication of the differences between push pull and single ended. Then im all ears. But, then again. I have been over to Ralph Karstens Place from Atma-Sphere and his tube amps are just the opposite. Fully balanced push pull OTL circlotron designs. And there amazing! Granted those are tubes, but the design is fully symmetrical. And something about symmetrical designs have always just made sense to me.
For my first big amp project, I was just hoping for something a bit more universal. A revisit to text book amp design by the master himself so to speak. Sound quality does come first for me. That is most important. But Power rating is a close second, simply because I know my listening habits. And there are times when I want the paint to peel off the walls!!! But having to connect a direct tap to the HV line outside doesn’t interest me either. Nor does wasting much of that power in excessive heat (even if it is MN!).
To anyone else but me, I would recommend 200watts per channel as being a sufficient amount of power for home use. And if my speakers were more efficient, I would be satisfied with that as well. But all things being what they are, more power is needed (insert Tim the Tool Man Taylor Grunt here!).
I would be happy with building my own 200 watt per channel amp. But I will always wish for more. 1KW is way too much for me, but it would be nice to study from a design point and maybe fun to build for recreational purposes.
So 400 watts would be a nice all around number (for me at least)! Plenty of power for demanding passages or action movies. Plenty of headroom at normal listening levels. And more current then I have available now!!!! I will have no reason to upgrade unless a significant improvement in sound quality could be had. But that’s why I want NELSON PASS to design these!!!
Maybe were closer together on this then the other thinks. A push pull output stage using both N&P devices does interest me. And as long as it is as efficient as a normal amp design then a ZEN approach would be quite interesting.
But I was still hoping for something different, new, revised, or old. A break from the ZEN way of thinking. Just for fun. I have No doubt that there would be MUCH interest from others like me in such a design from Mr. Pass. I have no doubt that there are quite a few others like myself out here that have been just waiting for such a thing!
It has been frustrating thus far in trying to find such a design. You would be supplying us with something that is lacking and much needed/wanted! If I am wrong and there are build able good sounding 400+ watt designs available, PLEASE point me that way as I have not found any yet!
“It’s been done before” yes it has, and then it should be quite easy and require little effort from such a master. Think about it from an educational standpoint. Think of what all we could learn from a revamp of a traditional textbook design.
“Why” because I know of no other such design available for AA’s like me to build!
And because no one, that I know have, has offered a design that could be scaled from ? To 1Kw. It would be a first.
“What about supporting it” well that is an issue. I am sure there will be many questions asked. I could understand if you did not want to deal with all that. State that as submission policy. Say to us, Here it is, now you go deal with it hahahahah! Or if you really wanted to be anonymous, design it. Email it to me. I will submit it to the board without acknowledging its designer!
“What will I get out of it” Well that’s a good question. The knowledge that your design is making people happy world wide? Bragging rights? PCB sales $$$, Heck charge me/us for the design. Name it!
:Shrug:
Thanks for listening to my dream/rant
Zero
Zero Cool said:
Alright Already. You started this thread, and now you're gonna
finish it. Here's the deal. I'll design a power supply and output
stage and so on, and you're going to build 2 of them (or more)
just like I say. Then you send them to me and I will put the
magic front end on them and document the performance and
then I'll send them back. Freight collect. The design remains
secret until I publish it, with with DIY rights given, but I retain
commercial rights.
Maybe you want to talk to the guy in over in the Solid State forum
with all that big hardware just begging for the same thing, and
the two of you could get together.
After all this talk I expect real temples for such a design.
Nelson Pass said:
My next-door-neighbor-to-be has those, and they are killer.
Kent and I are working on a nice pair of TAD 1601's, 1201's,
4001's with Emlar horns, and PT-R9 ribbons on top. As a 4-way,
you could say it's going to be a TAD over the top.
Yeah i got these for a song...literally!!! They were sitting in the back room of a Recording studio in Dallas that i worked for. they were beat up, drivers missing and miss matched, 1 peavey woofer hanging by 1 screw in the other. water soaked on the bottom. just terrible looking. no one even knew what they were. but i did!
One look at them and i knew right away what they were! I worked out a deal to engineer a session for the owner and he gave them to me...well, actuall he said "get those damn things out of here they take up too much room" So i did. it took me 3 years to rebuild them. this is back when you couldnt get the replacment diaphrams because they outlawed Berillyum. But i managed to wheel and deal and get them running. and yes they do sound good. but im not convinced there right yet. there is something wrong in one of the crossovers. one of the woofers seems to be partially out of phase, but not completly. reversing the wires makes it definitly out of phase, but i havent been able to get up there and tear into them and find out exactly whats wrong. The soffets are hard to get at and the covers are a B***H to get off!
im not even sure they have the original crossovers in them. i thought these should have been bi or triamped. but there full passive..... One day i will find G.A's email address and ask him if he knows anything about these. But not today...
Zero
Nelson Pass said:
Alright Already. You started this thread, and now you're gonna
finish it. Here's the deal. I'll design a power supply and output
stage and so on, and you're going to build 2 of them (or more)
just like I say. Then you send them to me and I will put the
magic front end on them and document the performance and
then I'll send them back. Freight collect. The design remains
secret until I publish it, with with DIY rights given, but I retain
commercial rights.
Maybe you want to talk to the guy in over in the Solid State forum
with all that big hardware just begging for the same thing, and
the two of you could get together.
After all this talk I expect real temples for such a design.
ALL RIGHT!!! IM IN!!!! Deal!!!! WAHOOOOOO!!!
I need to find a metal shop that can do the metal work here locally but that shouldnt be a big deal. I can AutoCAD the layout etc. I have already been talking with Chris from the other post and i will see how he feels about joining forces!
I have a pair of transformers already i would like to use if possible for at least 1 of them as i want to build mono blocks for myself. But i could build the 2nd amp a stereo version or what ever you want..
The transformers i have are 2KVA Medical Grade Isolation transformers. with quad primaries of 100, 110, 200, 240V and dual 120V secondaries.
My intent with these was to run them at half voltage. IE: run them from 120V on the 240V tap to produce dual 60V 500Va secondaries. this should get me/us +/- 85Vdc @ 1Kw correct??? If my calculations are correct. that should be good for about 400 watts including losses. But correct me if im wrong.
these are BIG 9" diameter, 4" thick and 35lbs each (see photo)
For the other one. i will have to locate what ever is needed.
I will send you an email with my private email address and we can discuss the ooouieee goooieeee details!!! MWAHAHHAHAHAH
BTW, its my B-day next month! this will be the greatest B-day present ever
hahahahah!!! THANKS!!!!I will NOT be sleeping tonight thats for sure!!!
As far as rights etc goes, your the man and what you say is golden. no problemo. super area 51 secret, etc etc!!! I will sign a N.D.A. if you want, or whatever we need to make it a go!
I already have some ideas for a chassis layout. But will revise as neccisary.
A Very EXCITED Zero
Attachments
Re: The Temple Has Already Been Built
NAAAH that wouldnt be as good as building one myself! THIS will be better, as i will have poured my heart, soul and im sure by the time were done. quite a bit of blood into! ahhahaha
This is something i have wanted to do for a long time! 15+ years or so!!
Zero
moe29 said:Mr. Pass... it sounds like Zero Cool is just trying to pry a
X-1000 out of your DIY pocket!
m.
(just kidding, it's good to see passion like Zero's)
NAAAH that wouldnt be as good as building one myself! THIS will be better, as i will have poured my heart, soul and im sure by the time were done. quite a bit of blood into! ahhahaha
This is something i have wanted to do for a long time! 15+ years or so!!
Zero
The "Kent" Nelson refers to isn't a what, he's a who. (Sounds like Dr. Seuss--All the Whos down in Whoville...) That's Kent English, who nobly sacrificed himself by accepting a position with Pass Labs so that Nelson wouldn't have to hire someone like me to be the resident extremist. Kent's official title is something like Special Projects Director (he works for NUMA in his spare time).
Grey
Grey
Oh!
I thought the who might have been the neighbor he was refering to and my mind started to wander thinking his neighbor might be this guy:
Such a nieghborhood.
I was starting to think my neighbors were, by comparison, quite dull. They are not. They just don’t do audio.
The KF 850 was quite popular in 1985...
Thanks.
/Always two there are...Sorry folks, my brain is addled...I've got a sick young-un in my lap who keeps reaching for the keyboard and I'm short on sleep.
Zero,
If I read your post correctly, those transformers will probably work, assuming that Nelson doesn't go single-rail on you. Start amassing 100V caps, heatsinks, etc. Word to the wise: An unexpectedly difficult item to find is...a reliable power switch. Expect to spend a young fortune on good switches or use a small switch to control a high power relay.
imix500,
I've seen SVTs in worse shape go for $1500 and more on ebay. I've got one head, one cabinet, original vinyl slip covers for both (when's the last time you saw those?), and owners manual, all in 98/100 or better condition. The head has had the Trainwreck (see the Aspen Pittman tube amp book) mod done to get rid of those pesky 12DW7s, otherwise everything is absolutely stock, including original drivers (The Attack of the Killer 10s, as one fellow put it). New front end tubes, by the way. In all, I'm looking to get $1800-2000 out of it. Buyer pays shipping or arranges pickup.
Grey
Zero,
If I read your post correctly, those transformers will probably work, assuming that Nelson doesn't go single-rail on you. Start amassing 100V caps, heatsinks, etc. Word to the wise: An unexpectedly difficult item to find is...a reliable power switch. Expect to spend a young fortune on good switches or use a small switch to control a high power relay.
imix500,
I've seen SVTs in worse shape go for $1500 and more on ebay. I've got one head, one cabinet, original vinyl slip covers for both (when's the last time you saw those?), and owners manual, all in 98/100 or better condition. The head has had the Trainwreck (see the Aspen Pittman tube amp book) mod done to get rid of those pesky 12DW7s, otherwise everything is absolutely stock, including original drivers (The Attack of the Killer 10s, as one fellow put it). New front end tubes, by the way. In all, I'm looking to get $1800-2000 out of it. Buyer pays shipping or arranges pickup.
Grey
GRollins said:
Yes! Just me and SmarmyDog!
I have agreed to sign a N.D.A. (Non Disclosure Agreement) If nessicary. There will be NO leaks here! I am not going to let a deal this sweet get mucked up.
I have asked SmarmyDog If he would like to Join Forces so to speak like Mr. Pass's Suggested! and while i cant speak for someone else. i do believe after several emails that he feels about the same as i do.
Wish i was in Cali, but, maybe a trip away from the Frozen Tundra in the coming months will be in order! hahahahah
So with Mr. Pass's aproval the team of Zero/Dog or Smarmy/Cool will be building the first pair of prototype's!!!
Zero
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