Brand new you can hear from the start a different timbre (much more balanced and full) and more refined highs but they do improve with the first 50-100 hours
If you haven't yet swapped the film and ceramics caps and R1/R4 with the one I've suggested you have a lot more to hear...
For you're convenience I've attached the preliminary and not final updated BOM
I don't understand, both old and preliminary BOM are quite identical about film caps...neither use polyester caps...
The film caps are one of the most rewarding change and Wima FKP2s are crucial (Vishay KP1830, also film/foil, could be an alternative).
For what positions you bought MKS2?
well ive been going by your bom 1.1 and on it is mkp2 for c7. i understand they're both pp caps but just thought there might be a sonic difference between the 'm' and the 'f' (film?)
mouser replies that the reason they haven't shipped out my order yet is they're out of mkp4 100nf... for c4,5.
mouser replies that the reason they haven't shipped out my order yet is they're out of mkp4 100nf... for c4,5.
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MKP2 are metallized polypropilene caps
FKP2 are polipropilene and metal foil
Film/foil caps are usually superior.
For C7 the difference is audible but you can live with the MKP2... next order you'll buy it
mouser replies that the reason they haven't shipped out my order yet is they're out of mkp4 100nf... for c4,5.
This is more a problem but streching legs you can mount MKP2s...
Tests state of the art
Just keep the thread up to date about my BOM re-evaluation, obiously it's a work in progress prone to further changes...
C1, C2
Now I've tried them (100/35, just for test)... fine but a bit couloured.
After several days of living with them I've understood why I always found them harsh.
FCs have a strange form of colouration, it's like they compress dynamic range in a frequency dependant manner giving a sort of loudness effect.
In fact they sound different from quite all other caps with medium bass and high frequency emphasis...
Not my cup of tea...
Instead I've finally managed to try low-ESR Elnas, RJH 220/50, with very good results.
They sound good, natural, balanced and it seems with no apparent harshness.
They seems also a good choice for a non audiophile cap in C9.
C7, C12, C30, C32
I've evaluated again those positione because I've discovered that sometimes FKP2s can be a bit coloured, romantic with a no perfect bass.
In C7 while FKP2s are much better than MKP2s I've discovered that FKS2s (polyester film/foil) are more balanced, further investigation needed.
C12 is pretty fine with FKP2 but if out of production caps doesn't scare you a polycarbonate film/foil FKC2 are a better balanced alternative with rock solid bass.
Also in C32 FKP2s behaves well but I'm investigating other caps.
A place where FKP2s should be removed is C30, here they're too much romantic and bass suffers, a FKS2 or a Amtrans AMCH are a much better choice.
C7, C11
Cerafines continues to seem the best cap here, I'm also trying Black Gates PK 47/25 and they sound even a bit better (more refined) but, maybe for the value, they tend to lack the last bit of bass punch, still evaluating though...
Signal path resistors
An all PRP solution like the last GB BOM it's not the best one and could be a bit harsh.
If we consider industrial resistors the carbon film shunt (R10, R11) I've introduced in my Ultimate BOM relieved a bit but more CFs are necessary to eliminare the last hint of harshness.
PRPs already sounds full like a carbon film but a tiny bit harsh... mixing them with the softer metal films Takman REY seems to give best results (R7, R12) but probably Rikens are even better.
Just keep the thread up to date about my BOM re-evaluation, obiously it's a work in progress prone to further changes...
C1, C2
Now I've tried them (100/35, just for test)... fine but a bit couloured.
After several days of living with them I've understood why I always found them harsh.
FCs have a strange form of colouration, it's like they compress dynamic range in a frequency dependant manner giving a sort of loudness effect.
In fact they sound different from quite all other caps with medium bass and high frequency emphasis...
Not my cup of tea...
Instead I've finally managed to try low-ESR Elnas, RJH 220/50, with very good results.
They sound good, natural, balanced and it seems with no apparent harshness.
They seems also a good choice for a non audiophile cap in C9.
C7, C12, C30, C32
I've evaluated again those positione because I've discovered that sometimes FKP2s can be a bit coloured, romantic with a no perfect bass.
In C7 while FKP2s are much better than MKP2s I've discovered that FKS2s (polyester film/foil) are more balanced, further investigation needed.
C12 is pretty fine with FKP2 but if out of production caps doesn't scare you a polycarbonate film/foil FKC2 are a better balanced alternative with rock solid bass.
Also in C32 FKP2s behaves well but I'm investigating other caps.
A place where FKP2s should be removed is C30, here they're too much romantic and bass suffers, a FKS2 or a Amtrans AMCH are a much better choice.
C7, C11
Cerafines continues to seem the best cap here, I'm also trying Black Gates PK 47/25 and they sound even a bit better (more refined) but, maybe for the value, they tend to lack the last bit of bass punch, still evaluating though...
Signal path resistors
An all PRP solution like the last GB BOM it's not the best one and could be a bit harsh.
If we consider industrial resistors the carbon film shunt (R10, R11) I've introduced in my Ultimate BOM relieved a bit but more CFs are necessary to eliminare the last hint of harshness.
PRPs already sounds full like a carbon film but a tiny bit harsh... mixing them with the softer metal films Takman REY seems to give best results (R7, R12) but probably Rikens are even better.
Perhaps one thing we're all learning from these experiments is that the exclusive use of ANY brand or type of part is a bad thing. This holds very nicely to the old adage that variety is the spice of life. I think that, along with design philosophy, use of the same brand of part throughout a product line is the primary reason most equipment from any particular manufacturer will have a "family" sound.
Use all PRP's and you'll get some harshnesss. Throw in a Takman or a carbon film or a Shinkoh and you'll get a blend of all the individual characteristics to produce a more pleasing sound. All FKP caps might be too much, all BG's might be too much, etc. A Silmic here, some FM's there, and they all balance each other. I'm sure there are bad combinations, as well, and some parts are simply superior to others in a particular application.
Peace,
Tom E
Use all PRP's and you'll get some harshnesss. Throw in a Takman or a carbon film or a Shinkoh and you'll get a blend of all the individual characteristics to produce a more pleasing sound. All FKP caps might be too much, all BG's might be too much, etc. A Silmic here, some FM's there, and they all balance each other. I'm sure there are bad combinations, as well, and some parts are simply superior to others in a particular application.
Peace,
Tom E
Thanks for the tip on the Elna RJH - I always considered it to be a Panasonic FC surrogate, but maybe it's actually better. From my experience, wherever an RJH can be used, an Elna RJJ will probably also work and sound better.
Regarding C30 - I was initially supplying a C0G ceramic, then switched to an MKS02, and then recently to FKP2. I'll admit that I didn't actually notice any obvious audible difference - maybe I'll revert to MKS02.
when you say the bass improves, do you also mean it deepens? i don't feel any lower bass from mine and think that it's rolled off rather stiff.
p.s. mouser package arrives today. the fun begins
I'm talking about quality but some components are bass-shy so swapping them with others sometimes also deepens them
Enjoy your swap party!
You're welcome Siva
I'll check if I can find a source for RJJs.
I suggest you to wait, remember that it's a work in progress, all components could change again with tests going on...
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i worked up the courage to short c13 just now and it's indeed a significant upgrade. first thing i notice is that there's more texture and body to the notes. bass is less (from 1.5uf mund supreme) but due to the darker background, imaging more realistic and dynamic. clave's been spot on with his upgrades so far. :thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
i worked up the courage to short c13 just now and it's indeed a significant upgrade.
...
clave's been spot on with his upgrades so far.
Thanks but remember that C13 is necessary, it influence LM318's compensation...
In fact, with the right coupling cap, the MyRef sounds better with C13 in place.
The circuit is designed for a 1uF cap but a slightly higher value cap works as well.
I've compared variuos caps from 1 to 2.2 uF but, since each one has its characteristic sound I can't say for sure if 1 or 1.2 uF sound different...
BTW I never felt that 1 uF caps lacked bass or something like this.
Those graphs show that a higher value cap has a better phase linearity but they don't take in account how C13 interacts with the LM318.
No, I didn't.
But the Supreme is a metallized cap Vs the Zn that is a tin foil one.
In my experience film/foil caps are always superior, better texture, detail and bass.
comparing one channels almost fully ultimate 'bommed' sans few carbon resistors to the untouched one, yes, the improvements are all over the chart but the time smear has come back- which had disappeared when c21 was previously omitted. it's much less noticeable with fkp2 but still enough for me to take action. bye bye wima, black gate where are thou...
also the ultimate bom channel is louder by a db or two.
oh i scorched the top of fkp2 for c21 with the solder and a yellow undercasing was exposed. that was first and hopefully last accident of this project but do you think it has damaged the functionality of the piece?
also the ultimate bom channel is louder by a db or two.
oh i scorched the top of fkp2 for c21 with the solder and a yellow undercasing was exposed. that was first and hopefully last accident of this project but do you think it has damaged the functionality of the piece?
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sorry, clave. turns out i reversed the polarity on c15 while bottom mounting it. now it sounds gorgeous and no prat offsets. i still want to listen to it with c21 taken out but can't bring myself to get up from the listening chair atm.
p.s. i used 100v nichicon muse for c15 and it seems to help the upper bass.
p.s. i used 100v nichicon muse for c15 and it seems to help the upper bass.
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So, you've noted a difference in sound swapping the DC protection caps??
Regarding C21 what are you currently using in C9?
If it's a BG you should remove C21, otherwise I'll keep it.