Varnish, or not to varnish
One of the reasons I like varnish is the extra bit of cab damping... I think it helps the micro dynamics.
Also one can add just a smig of artist's titainium white to the varnish. This gives plywood a wonderful color. If you add a bunch, its like a pickle job.
My client, Johanna loves the whitish color.
One of the reasons I like varnish is the extra bit of cab damping... I think it helps the micro dynamics.
Also one can add just a smig of artist's titainium white to the varnish. This gives plywood a wonderful color. If you add a bunch, its like a pickle job.
My client, Johanna loves the whitish color.
Agreed, all the finishing before assembly, with taped gluing surfaces makes it easier.staggerlee said:
I also prefer fashioned shellac, in the method DaveCan linked.
Shellac INSIDE too (all surfaces except glue joints) seems to make them sound better as well...
And shellac is easy to touch-up / final finish after final assembly, or add closer to a real french polish if you really want to get carried away.
Robert
Finishing before assembly is starting to make more and more sense... if I can actually pull it off.
Anyway, it turns out that after eleventeen sandings it still needs wood conditioner, as the stain is going on very blotchy. And I've decided that white stain is not going to do what I wanted it to. It just looks like a half finished paint job.
So one more time down to naked and then paint. I didn't want to, but there's no choice anymore.
Anyway, it turns out that after eleventeen sandings it still needs wood conditioner, as the stain is going on very blotchy. And I've decided that white stain is not going to do what I wanted it to. It just looks like a half finished paint job.
So one more time down to naked and then paint. I didn't want to, but there's no choice anymore.
I decided to add a coat of clear just to see what it looked like. I see only a blotchy disaster but everyone else thinks it looks fine. I have a strong desire to be done with this, so I think I might just leave it alone now. I don't think they are suitable as gifts, but I can keep them and make more. You can polish a piece of **** all you want but it's still just a polished piece of **** - there's really nothing I can do with the mouth, so there's only so far I can go with this. Next time I will be finishing my panels before assembly as advised.
Pictures tomorrow, if I can make my camera play nice with vista.
Pictures tomorrow, if I can make my camera play nice with vista.
That's too bad, you really put a lot of good effort into those cabs. Just know that even the best wood finisher's in the world have problems once in a while, so don't get discouraged... Perhaps the best or easiest thing to do now for you is just paint em!! Hit em with a coat of primer and paint them up, ''big bubbles-no troubles''
Dave
Dave
FWIW when I was ~forced to provide finished speakers I 'veneered' them with thick wallpaper since it was easy, I could usually 'sweet talk' the guy's wife into at least helping, and the wood, you name it available coverings meant they could get pretty much exactly what they wanted in an easily repairable finish. It was the era of 'butcher block', so the most common, not to mention easy to match pattern asked for, though the marbles and bamboo were my faves from a visual statement POV.
GM
GM
Wallpaper is an interesting idea too, although I can't imagine trying to retrofit the mouth with any kind of veneer. Even with paper and scissors, those shapes are way out of my league. With the selection of wallpaper these days, the sky is the limit for a purely rectangular box... I like the idea of bamboo. A lot. Marble not so much for a speaker box. That's just me though.
Anyway, after I said I'd leave it alone, I didn't. I applied more stain directly overtop of the clear coat, figuring it would work just like wood conditioner. NOW I'm finally getting rid of the blotches. FINALLY I'm getting something I think I can live with happily - not sure sis will like it though. In a darkened room, it looks just like white paint, but in light you still see the grain and end grain clearly.
So the first one is almost finished, maybe 1 more coat of stain and then a couple of clear. The second one is still bare wood.
Psychologically, this is an interesting little predicament - it's (at times) almost depressing enough to make me physically ill, yet I can't leave it alone. It's been sanded so many times there's almost not much left - lol.
Anyway, after I said I'd leave it alone, I didn't. I applied more stain directly overtop of the clear coat, figuring it would work just like wood conditioner. NOW I'm finally getting rid of the blotches. FINALLY I'm getting something I think I can live with happily - not sure sis will like it though. In a darkened room, it looks just like white paint, but in light you still see the grain and end grain clearly.
So the first one is almost finished, maybe 1 more coat of stain and then a couple of clear. The second one is still bare wood.
Psychologically, this is an interesting little predicament - it's (at times) almost depressing enough to make me physically ill, yet I can't leave it alone. It's been sanded so many times there's almost not much left - lol.
I'm feeling way too lazy to do anything productive today, so here's a teaser pic instead. Entitled "Welcome to my nightmare", this pic shows the content of my current bad dream in an entirely unoptomistic light. This photo is actually so bad it does not show any of the good or bad aspects at all. When they are done, I will have buddy take pics, he does so much better than me.
I realized the driver hole cutout was large enough to accomodate the 108 or 126, so it is pictured with the 126, and probably I will move to the 126 for actual use as well. I just "think" I have a better shot at getting it to sound great with the 126.
No proud papa syndrome here, in fact most of my work disgusts me to no end at first and I can't stand to even look at it, until the memories of all the little blemishes fade a bit.
I was going to try to "fix" this bad pic with photo editting, to actually show some detail, but decided that this is at least honest, this is how it looks without a flash on a gloomy day in the corner of my room. EDIT - or was the flash on? I can't even tell...
I realized the driver hole cutout was large enough to accomodate the 108 or 126, so it is pictured with the 126, and probably I will move to the 126 for actual use as well. I just "think" I have a better shot at getting it to sound great with the 126.
No proud papa syndrome here, in fact most of my work disgusts me to no end at first and I can't stand to even look at it, until the memories of all the little blemishes fade a bit.
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I was going to try to "fix" this bad pic with photo editting, to actually show some detail, but decided that this is at least honest, this is how it looks without a flash on a gloomy day in the corner of my room. EDIT - or was the flash on? I can't even tell...
Is that some fancy modded 126? Doesn't look like the stock driver?
I think your too hard on yourself, they look good... You can still just paint them if you want, and be done with it... Hopefully after all that sanding the exterior panels are still at least 1mm thick, just don't turn them up to loud
Dave
I think your too hard on yourself, they look good... You can still just paint them if you want, and be done with it... Hopefully after all that sanding the exterior panels are still at least 1mm thick, just don't turn them up to loud
Dave
just a guy said:
stop beating yourself up - those amongst us honest enough will admit to at least one or 3 less than cosmetically perfect projects
just turn the lights down low, pop the top on your favorite beverage, and enjoy the music
I'd agree that unless you're a real midrange fetishist, the FE126 will probably deliver more bang for the buck than the FE108 in this design. It certainly does in Ed Shilling's Horn
The drivers in the picture have some degree of treatment - I can't recall if you've discussed the full details, would you care to revisit that?
DaveCan said:Is that some fancy modded 126? Doesn't look like the stock driver?
I think your too hard on yourself, they look good... You can still just paint them if you want, and be done with it... Hopefully after all that sanding the exterior panels are still at least 1mm thick, just don't turn them up to loud
Dave
Dave, did you mean 1 cm?
chrisb said:
Dave, did you mean 1 cm?
Nope, I was trying to make a joke that after all of that sanding he did, there would still be at least 1mm left ( also a joke) So now he's still ok as long as he keeps the volume low or they will blow apart..
Anyhow I just hope your sis appreciates all the love and sweat, even if they're not perfect.. You should show her this thread so she can see all the devotion you put into those cabs..
Dave
Btw, the wood workmanship that I did on my BIB cabs, are not even close to the level that you accomplished on your FH build.. You should be proud of yourself!!!!
Thanks for the compliments Dave. I'll admit they look slightly better than naked, but I won't go any further.
I think they might be ok for me but don't want to push them on her if they aren't what she wants. I'll demo these for her and if she wants them she can have them, if not I'll make her something to suit her better.
Chrisb, I haven't done anything at all to them. I'll check on your suggestion and if not done already I'll do it asap.
A couple more teaser pics. The first shows almost finished vs naked, the second one shows the usage of the driver cutout to close my kitty litter fill hole.
I think they might be ok for me but don't want to push them on her if they aren't what she wants. I'll demo these for her and if she wants them she can have them, if not I'll make her something to suit her better.
Chrisb, I haven't done anything at all to them. I'll check on your suggestion and if not done already I'll do it asap.
A couple more teaser pics. The first shows almost finished vs naked, the second one shows the usage of the driver cutout to close my kitty litter fill hole.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
FWIW, your sister may not be as fussy about heirloom quality furniture finish as you're obsessing over (but on the other hand, you'd know her better than any of us) - you could simply paint the cabinets with a slightly textured acrylic finish, or even her go crazy with a faux finish.
As someone said above, e-mail her a link to this thread so she can see how much effort you've put into this project - that's a gift at least as important as the finish quality.
Since your picture shows edges have been rounded over, you couldn't layer with veneer or plastic laminate without at least a 3mm skin of ply/MDF (which I've done more than one myself, BTW). That could however easily solve the problem.
Glue the skin layer with contact cement, and iron-on the veneer, then finish with oil finish / stain of your choice. Do not apply paper back veneer with contact cement (unless latex based) if you're going to apply a solvent based finish.
As someone said above, e-mail her a link to this thread so she can see how much effort you've put into this project - that's a gift at least as important as the finish quality.
Since your picture shows edges have been rounded over, you couldn't layer with veneer or plastic laminate without at least a 3mm skin of ply/MDF (which I've done more than one myself, BTW). That could however easily solve the problem.
Glue the skin layer with contact cement, and iron-on the veneer, then finish with oil finish / stain of your choice. Do not apply paper back veneer with contact cement (unless latex based) if you're going to apply a solvent based finish.
Heirloom quality? I'd be more than happy with just furniture grade. These pics don't show much detail, but I clearly see blotches all over the place, the front panel sucked up WAY too much stain and some parts are shiny and some parts are dull. Now that I have a few hours of hands on finishing experience, I know I can do much better if I try one more time...
But I don't even want to think about that right now. The one thing (besides inexperience) that is screwing me up now is impatience. I really don't want to be doing this, I want to listen to them. I've only had one very quiet session with them in a proper room so far. With that in mind, I am ceasing and desisting any further thought of finishing until further notice. I am going to put in the 126s and get them tuned.
But I don't even want to think about that right now. The one thing (besides inexperience) that is screwing me up now is impatience. I really don't want to be doing this, I want to listen to them. I've only had one very quiet session with them in a proper room so far. With that in mind, I am ceasing and desisting any further thought of finishing until further notice. I am going to put in the 126s and get them tuned.
Probably a good idea to leave em alone for a bit then, and just take a step back and enjoy for a while.. Clear coats and staining are much more touchy, than just painting the cabs up imo.. You could easily hit them with primer, and put on a couple of coats of a satin paint( way more forgiving than gloss) really easy and they should look pretty good... If your not trying to win the best cab finish category at a diy get together or something, don't worry about it..
There use to be a diy beer brewing show on the Knowledge Network way back when.. The main saying of the guy as he taught each step was always, "Don't worry, relax, have a home brew" I think this applies in your case right now.. Basically, put on a favorite disc, sit back, enjoy a favorite beverage.. Dave
There use to be a diy beer brewing show on the Knowledge Network way back when.. The main saying of the guy as he taught each step was always, "Don't worry, relax, have a home brew" I think this applies in your case right now.. Basically, put on a favorite disc, sit back, enjoy a favorite beverage.. Dave
After listening away half the day I've come to some realizations. Like I said before, the mids are dripping with detail (but those same mids hurt a bit when turned up). I'm not wanting extra high end "air" anymore with the 126.
But as I suspected, the tweaks I did had little or no effect on the midbass problem. With a bit of eq (-6db at 250 hz, -3db at 125 hz - a quick first approximation) it is quite nice but not perfect. I can't help feel that my limited graphic eq is a hamfisted solution, kind of like patching a sock with duct tape. I did the chamber lining as per GM's instructions, I've played with placement and toe in, all I have left to do now is some testing to confirm what I think is the problem - the two big peaks that show clearly in the half space measurements. I've tried +3db eq boost at 500 hz to simulate a suprabaffle, but that's clearly not where the problem lies.
At this point I can't imagine any amount of absorbtive treatment is going to clear this up without completely killing the lower bass, although this is just first impressions unconfirmed with measurements. I think parametric eq would fix it up just fine, but it's not where I want to go with this. Maybe a couple of small high q narrow band "bass traps" like in the Singular or in Danley's Tower of Power could notch out these spikes if there's room for them.
Maybe it's a room problem, but the problem persists after being tried in two rooms that probably could not be more different, with 2 different drivers and a multitude of tweaks in between. Maybe the issue is an air leak, I'm pretty sure it's not quite airtight where the binding posts will be, although I would suspect that would actually lower the q of any resonances not raise it.
EDIT - to be fair, nothing really sounds good in this room and these sound pretty darn good - with a bit of eq.
But as I suspected, the tweaks I did had little or no effect on the midbass problem. With a bit of eq (-6db at 250 hz, -3db at 125 hz - a quick first approximation) it is quite nice but not perfect. I can't help feel that my limited graphic eq is a hamfisted solution, kind of like patching a sock with duct tape. I did the chamber lining as per GM's instructions, I've played with placement and toe in, all I have left to do now is some testing to confirm what I think is the problem - the two big peaks that show clearly in the half space measurements. I've tried +3db eq boost at 500 hz to simulate a suprabaffle, but that's clearly not where the problem lies.
At this point I can't imagine any amount of absorbtive treatment is going to clear this up without completely killing the lower bass, although this is just first impressions unconfirmed with measurements. I think parametric eq would fix it up just fine, but it's not where I want to go with this. Maybe a couple of small high q narrow band "bass traps" like in the Singular or in Danley's Tower of Power could notch out these spikes if there's room for them.
Maybe it's a room problem, but the problem persists after being tried in two rooms that probably could not be more different, with 2 different drivers and a multitude of tweaks in between. Maybe the issue is an air leak, I'm pretty sure it's not quite airtight where the binding posts will be, although I would suspect that would actually lower the q of any resonances not raise it.
EDIT - to be fair, nothing really sounds good in this room and these sound pretty darn good - with a bit of eq.
This was taken using room eq wizard and the built in mic in my laptop (3x, just to be sure) as close as I could get to the listening spot with my short cords. The mic and soundcard are suspect for so many reasons - but it seems to work ok to point out any glaring issues in the telephone band. Looks like the suprabaffle could indeed be a welcome addition - once the twin mountains are bulldozed.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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