just a guy said:
The damping seems to have done its job well, but you're right, neither a supra baffle nor stuffing will will damp too much mid-bass/mids gain without over-damping the LF. Now you've learned first hand why when I've discussed BLH design that I recommend building in too much LF gain with a seeming too large filter chamber........
Anyway, looks like a low BSC corner frequency combined with a supra-baffle is required = $big$ inductor.
GM
GM said:
Let me grab my flack jacket, but would this be a suitable application for line level parametric EQ?
As final in-room results of a rear mouth horn can be very room / placement dependent, it could well be cheaper in the long run to invest in an inexpensive EQ or software for computer based systems than in big$$ passive components, particularly if the speakers hang around long enough to move to new venue(s).
Furthermore, a lot of folks including your sister might be more than happy with the performance as is. If she's not already aware of the project, it might be time for her to hear them in their intended home.
Yup, you say it all the time. I just simply didn't realize there was a problem with B horn variants in general at all, until I made it, listened to it and then went looking for other similar reports and found lots of them. I do actually have a few extra liters of chamber to play with, but I may have to evict some kitty litter...
OTOH, just about everything on the frugal horn website seems to have the same midbass heavy signature by looking at the graphs. Of course the software only goes so far, and the spawns don't have the frugal's nasty 10 db spikes in this region, but they also won't have corner support to help even response out. So now I'm a bit confused. Why so much midbass in all these designs?
This is true too, I need to do additional measurements with different placements and see if I can flatten the mountains a bit that way. And I suspect that concrete corners could almost make this flat. If not flat, at least a whole lot better.
TBH, I'm really confused. Evidently, lots of people are very happy with their horns. But if my horns are representative of B horn variants in general, I don't understand how they could score any positive reviews at all. They do sound very good with eq (outstanding), but IMO completely worthless without, especially at high volume. I'm really wondering if I screwed up the build somehow, but the response graph shows everything is (kind of) where it should be. Again, maybe it's just the room though.
I'll keep plugging away with tweaks and mods to see how far I can get mechanically, and if necessesary I'll make up a passive line level filter or just keep eq'ing it.
The listening tests and graphs are showing that the suprabaffle is really a small issue here compared to the mountainous response right next door. Of course I haven't tried it yet, but it seems like a very minor point until the rest is taken care of.
No, but I'm currently using a tube amp. That's high impedance by default, isn't it? I don't know much about amps. I bought it just for use with single driver designs.
Also, I'm using a single twisted pair of cat 5 from amp to driver, which is apparently supposed to be high R, but not sure how high. About 6 feet of 24 gauge per side.
Also, I'm using a single twisted pair of cat 5 from amp to driver, which is apparently supposed to be high R, but not sure how high. About 6 feet of 24 gauge per side.
just a guy said:
output impedance on tube amps can vary substantially, depending on the topology.
if it has multiple output taps, you might want to try using one other than just 8 ohms
Higher than say 12 gauge "monster wire", or high pair count braided CAT5 formulas, but I doubt high enough to make that significant a difference - that's probably why GM suggested experimenting with a cheap L-Pad in series.
I think it is a SEP - it's about 5w per channel of el84 power (IIRC - I don't find amps that interesting yet).
I was wondering if my R was too high earlier, but Chrisb said the cat 5 was probably not the problem, so it's probably the only thing I didn't change.
I gots all kinds of ss amps. None are high quality, but that hardly matters for measurements. I'll repeat the measurements tonight with ss power, although I'm not as keen about switching out my wiring tonight, that almost sounds like work, lol. Maybe later (tomorrow).
BTW, these get crazy loud with 5 watts.
I was wondering if my R was too high earlier, but Chrisb said the cat 5 was probably not the problem, so it's probably the only thing I didn't change.
I gots all kinds of ss amps. None are high quality, but that hardly matters for measurements. I'll repeat the measurements tonight with ss power, although I'm not as keen about switching out my wiring tonight, that almost sounds like work, lol. Maybe later (tomorrow).
BTW, these get crazy loud with 5 watts.
just a guy said:
I'm a big fan of the EL84 myself, but an EL84 amp for less than the cost of the Kingrex? Care to mention names?
And, yeah if you think 5w can get them loud, try 70w of vintage 70's Marantz - one of the pieces in my listening room at the moment is a 2270. Not as refined or musically intimate as either the 2A3, 300B or EL84 P/P triode, but it could well play loud enough even for Ed Schilling (if I had any AC/DC around!)
Here's some good workin ss power (3x again, just to be sure). Absolute spl levels probably don't match the tube graphs above, the noise floor is slightly different now than when I did the earlier tests, and the laptop might not have been EXACTLY in the same spot, but the speakers did not move a hair in between tests.
Chrisb, it was used, that's why it was cheaper. I couldn't find a used kingrex. It's a glow amp one I picked up a few months ago. (Yeah, ok, I bought it based on looks.)
It really blows me away how much power these little things can suck up (and how little they actually need to get stupid loud), 70 watts of fullrange power seems like SO much for 4 inch drivers. I tried hard to bottom them out with 5w/ch, couldn't do it with even rap music.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Chrisb, it was used, that's why it was cheaper. I couldn't find a used kingrex. It's a glow amp one I picked up a few months ago. (Yeah, ok, I bought it based on looks.)
It really blows me away how much power these little things can suck up (and how little they actually need to get stupid loud), 70 watts of fullrange power seems like SO much for 4 inch drivers. I tried hard to bottom them out with 5w/ch, couldn't do it with even rap music.
just a guy said:
I've heard the GLOW with an FE127E design, and it's a dovetail match. If you're lucky, this could be the only tube amp you'll need for any of the Fostex FR drivers. Do consider the tube upgrade kit from AudioMagus - and while I haven't heard the on-board USB DAC, consensus is that's the amp's Achilles heal.
That little Glow amp is a real audio bargain it would seem, many good reviews... (I was going to say glowing).. They seem like a company that will listen to what people like and dislike about that little amp,and fine tune their products as required, so the USB issue may be solved hopefully.. Will be interesting to see the new releases coming down the pike... That was a good choice I believe, for you to start your journey into tube land...
Dave
Dave
Real audio bargains never seem to last long, so I jumped at the chance. I have a feeling that after a few more glowing reviews it won't be priced so reasonably anymore.
WRT new releases, the new production run (apparently available later this month if my sources are correct) will feature an improved dac but will cost 20 percent more. And I wouldn't be surprised if it goes up more than 20 percent with the current state of the economy.
I figured if I bought the older (current) model used I would save more than enough to buy a monica usb dac, but Yeo doesn't want to sell them anymore unboxed - although I haven't bothered to inquire directly - and he did let a couple of unboxed boards go a few months ago. I don't want to pay over $100 more for his stupid little wooden box, I just want the dac. Keeping my eyes open for a used monica.
WRT new releases, the new production run (apparently available later this month if my sources are correct) will feature an improved dac but will cost 20 percent more. And I wouldn't be surprised if it goes up more than 20 percent with the current state of the economy.
I figured if I bought the older (current) model used I would save more than enough to buy a monica usb dac, but Yeo doesn't want to sell them anymore unboxed - although I haven't bothered to inquire directly - and he did let a couple of unboxed boards go a few months ago. I don't want to pay over $100 more for his stupid little wooden box, I just want the dac. Keeping my eyes open for a used monica.
I've been pretty critical about the things I have yet to iron out wrt these small horns, so I thought it was time for a post about the things they do well.
Exceptionally dynamic (compared to what I'm used to).
Dripping with detail (did I mention that already?)
Crazy loud (especially with an appropriate "rumble" (high pass) filter around 60 hz.
They sound GREAT (assuming a bit of eq in my case so far).
Great "wow" factor (considering the amount of sound coming from such a small driver in a small box).
In their price range (less than $200 complete for my pair) they kick the snot out of anything commercial (depending on individual tastes and goals I suppose).
Huge WAF (my personal finish notwithstanding) and I love the B horn aesthetics (tall, thin, cool looking mouth).
Although I've been listening to primarily bass heavy music (not at all the type of stuff noted for imaging, soundstage, etc), these speakers seem to have it all and don't seem to mind being over 11 feet apart and shoved into corners (opinions may change subject to appropriate listening material).
I'm becoming increasing convinced that the room is my enemy here. Perhaps not the root of all evil, but certainly not helping. It's always been a terrible terrible room for sound. In my open concept house, I am already out of corners to use. So I am going to do some research on properly measuring blh's to minimize room effects with gating. (I'm pretty new to measurements). Maybe I should just measure them outside on a nice day. I suppose that would mostly only account for forward radiation, but that info could be useful too.
Furthermore, I suspect that the need for a suprabaffle (in my case) is greatly reduced simply because the speakers are pushed as tight to the side walls as they can get (and toed in of course), which actually makes the composite "baffle" pretty large. I should probably measure them pulled in from the walls to confirm...
Exceptionally dynamic (compared to what I'm used to).
Dripping with detail (did I mention that already?)
Crazy loud (especially with an appropriate "rumble" (high pass) filter around 60 hz.
They sound GREAT (assuming a bit of eq in my case so far).
Great "wow" factor (considering the amount of sound coming from such a small driver in a small box).
In their price range (less than $200 complete for my pair) they kick the snot out of anything commercial (depending on individual tastes and goals I suppose).
Huge WAF (my personal finish notwithstanding) and I love the B horn aesthetics (tall, thin, cool looking mouth).
Although I've been listening to primarily bass heavy music (not at all the type of stuff noted for imaging, soundstage, etc), these speakers seem to have it all and don't seem to mind being over 11 feet apart and shoved into corners (opinions may change subject to appropriate listening material).
I'm becoming increasing convinced that the room is my enemy here. Perhaps not the root of all evil, but certainly not helping. It's always been a terrible terrible room for sound. In my open concept house, I am already out of corners to use. So I am going to do some research on properly measuring blh's to minimize room effects with gating. (I'm pretty new to measurements). Maybe I should just measure them outside on a nice day. I suppose that would mostly only account for forward radiation, but that info could be useful too.
Furthermore, I suspect that the need for a suprabaffle (in my case) is greatly reduced simply because the speakers are pushed as tight to the side walls as they can get (and toed in of course), which actually makes the composite "baffle" pretty large. I should probably measure them pulled in from the walls to confirm...
a few thoughts:
1) it's easy to overthink things, and stop listening with your heart - yup these things can certainly put a smile on your face
2) you'll probably encounter some curiosities when attempting to measure this type of speaker away from a corner - I could suggest you contact Ed Schilling in that regard, but don't
3) as Dave could better explain, the supra baffle is really intended to lower the baffle step frequency to blend with the LF gain of the horn load. It is not a substitute for corner loading of the enclosure, which serves to enlarge the effective mouth area and improve overall coupling of lower registers to the room.
4) the rear deflector is also important, in that it serves to deflect the soundwaves to the sides, whether corner loaded or not, and significantly reduce interference from reflections directly back into the mouth of the horn
Unfortunately, in most cases, both the supra baffle and rear deflector significantly reduce the WAF. For those of you not having that problem - congratulations!
1) it's easy to overthink things, and stop listening with your heart - yup these things can certainly put a smile on your face
2) you'll probably encounter some curiosities when attempting to measure this type of speaker away from a corner - I could suggest you contact Ed Schilling in that regard, but don't
3) as Dave could better explain, the supra baffle is really intended to lower the baffle step frequency to blend with the LF gain of the horn load. It is not a substitute for corner loading of the enclosure, which serves to enlarge the effective mouth area and improve overall coupling of lower registers to the room.
4) the rear deflector is also important, in that it serves to deflect the soundwaves to the sides, whether corner loaded or not, and significantly reduce interference from reflections directly back into the mouth of the horn
Unfortunately, in most cases, both the supra baffle and rear deflector significantly reduce the WAF. For those of you not having that problem - congratulations!
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